The example is not correct but I created a small example that is. TBC works fine with punning. Of course :myCar rdf:type :TeslaModelS :type :CarModel means that :myCar does not inherit any properties from :CarModel.
[image: Capture.PNG] On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 8:20:34 PM UTC+1, Jan Voskuil wrote: > > Thanks David, you are right. I did follow some courses on possible world > semantics, Montague semantics, higher order logics and the like, and > although this is now ancient history (for me) I should have known and > phrased my concerns differently. In any case thanks for the references, > these are highly relevant to the discussions I am currently taking part in: > Linked Building Data community and a related Dutch standard that Michel is > working on a lot. > > I guess, though, that the problem is not DL vs FOL but type theory. The > spec to which you refer in your original comment says: > The OWL 2 Direct Semantics treats the different uses of the same name as > completely separate, as is required in DL reasoners. > Does the same not also hold for FOL-reasoners? > > So <mountain>-the-concept and <mountain>-the-class are different objects. > Same for your example > > :x rdf:type :Eagle rdf:type :Species rdf:type owl:Class > > Eagle-the-species is a different thing than eagle-the-individual, so from > these statements it cannot be concluded that :x is an instance of something > that, in turn, is a species. And if that spurious conclusion is NOT > intended, then why not use two different names? > > Or would a FOL-reasoner infer the intended conclusion? I am beginning to > have doubts so I am curious. > > And, contrary to may earlier statements about tools going berserk, TBC > handles punning quite nicely. So I retract that. So when you open the > infamous DCTERMS ontology and open it in TBC, you will find that AgentClass > is defined as a Class and a subClassOf Class. Instances of AgentClass are > neatly shown as classes not individuals, althought they are both (but not > at the same time). That said, I keep having a rather queasy feeling when I > see this. > > [image: Capture.PNG] > > > Of course all this is not intended to suggest that FOL does not solve real > problems. It does, and so do more powerful logical systems. > > And I do remember the discussions we had in which you propose to treat > different levels of modelness in separate graphs. That would also be an > instance of punning, but one in which one can systematically separate out > the different meanings in contexts that are explicitly marked as different. > Still a lot to process, but at least it becomes tractable what is what when. > > My general penchant is that SHACL offers a wealth of tactics to do > metamodeling in a much more elegant way than with OWL (let alone punning). > A good example was pointed out by Holger to me earlier today: > dash:composite. I believe SHACL is seriously underused in tackling the > hairier problems in information modelling on the semantic web. > > On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 5:54:34 PM UTC+1, David Price wrote: >> >> >> >> On 19 Nov 2019, at 15:24, Jan Voskuil <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> A very late after-burner (I am currently involved in similar discussions >> and stumbled upon this thread by accident): >> Have a look at Uschold's "Demystifying OWL". It is a good read, >> especially the two pages on punning. >> While there is little to add to what Irene and David have said, I think >> it is important to stress that when people say things like "I have a set of >> triples, and these imply OWL Full", what really is being said is that there >> is a deep and serious problem with the model being used. OWL Full does not >> solve these problems, nor does it cause interesting things to happen. It >> only guides an OWL-inferencer around the underlying problems, so that it >> does not break down. The original intention of the underlying model is not >> achieved, however. Introspective tools will not behave as expected. Irene's >> example about the BMW 240i is hard in any formal language, because of type >> theory being counter-intuitive. There is nothing one can do about that. >> Instead of trying to out-smart the semantics of RDF, it is most often >> better to bite the bullet and solve the issue in the model itself --- and >> accept the added complexity. >> >> >> Hi Jan, >> >> Personally, I think that characterisation goes a bit too far although the >> core sentiment is a good approach. >> >> Technically, all "OWL Full” really means is that the model uses logic >> that is, for example, based in First Order Logic [1] rather than in >> Description Logic [2]. Using DL often means the modeller has chosen >> “decidability” over “representational capability” wrt their model. That’s >> fine if DL is sufficient to model your domain of interest. But, what if >> it’s not? >> >> There are certainly cases where the use of first order logic models and >> engines have solved real-world problems. >> >> I imagine most folks don’t know that “The relational model (RM) >> for database management is an approach to managing data using a structure >> and language consistent with first-order predicate logic,” (quote from >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_model) >> >> There’s even an ISO standard logic language supporting for those cases - >> Common Logic [3] is an ISO standard that “provide for the expression of >> arbitrary first-order logical sentences”. >> >> There are also standard data models, ISO 15926-2 [4] for example, that >> are based in higher-than-DL order logic (full disclosure, with previous >> employers I worked in ISO on 15926 and ISO 10303 STEP). >> >> I agree that there are many, many, many “bad” models in industry. >> However, there are plenty of quality models that use logic higher than DL - >> they just require more expertise to create and use (e.g. logicians may be >> needed in the project). I happen to have studied math and have been >> surprised at times to find ontologist/modelers who don’t understand any of >> this stuff because they never studied set theory or logic. These more >> complex ideas require some background education/knowledge in order to use >> them properly. However, I’m sure you know the quote: *Everything Should >> Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler.* >> >> Apologies for the long reply and all the links. Just something to which I >> happen to have had quite a bit of exposure, although am not truly an >> expert, as I spent a lot of time debating academics and logicians in >> ISO-land when working for IBM. >> >> Cheers, >> David >> >> [1] ISO/IEC 24707:2018. Information technology — Common Logic (CL) — A >> framework for a family of logic-based languages >> >> See https://www.iso.org/standard/66249.html >> >> [2] First-order Logic >> >> Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic >> >> [3] Description Logic >> >> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Description_logic >> >> [4] ISO 15926-2:2003. Industrial automation systems and integration — >> Integration of life-cycle data for process plants including oil and gas >> production facilities — Part 2: Data model >> >> See https://www.iso.org/standard/29557.html >> >> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 5:31:08 PM UTC+2, Bohms, H.M. (Michel) >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> In: >>> >>> https://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/skos-and-owl/master.html >>> >>> >>> its is said: >>> >>> “ >>> >>> To illustrate these patterns, let's start with the following semi-formal >>> conceptualisation: >>> >>> ex:mountains rdf:type skos:Concept; >>> >>> skos:prefLabel "Mountains"@en. >>> >>> >>> ex:himalayas rdf:type skos:Concept; >>> >>> skos:prefLabel "Himalayas"@en; >>> >>> skos:broader ex:mountains. >>> >>> >>> ex:everest rdf:type skos:Concept; >>> >>> skos:prefLabel "Everest"@en; >>> >>> skos:broader ex:himalayas. >>> >>> *Overlay SKOS with OWL* >>> >>> In this pattern, we use OWL to overlay additional semantics on the same >>> vocabulary, e.g. by adding the following triples: >>> >>> ex:mountains rdf:type owl:Class. >>> >>> >>> ex:himalayas rdf:type owl:Class; >>> >>> rdfs:subClassOf ex:mountains. >>> >>> >>> ex:everest rdf:type ex:himalayas. >>> >>> If the two sets of triples are merged, then this pattern necessarily >>> leads to an OWL Full representation, because an instance of >>> skos:Concept might also be an instance of owl:Class. >>> >>> >>> “ >>> >>> >>> Is the red statement really true? And if yes, is it really an issue here? >>> >>> >>> (maybe it was under owl1 but under owl2 not different?) >>> >>> >>> thx for advice, Michel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Böhms >>> Senior Data Scientist >>> >>> T +31888663107 >>> M +31630381220 >>> E [email protected] >>> >>> Location >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/TNO+-+Locatie+Delft+-+Stieltjesweg/@52.000788,4.3745183,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c5b58c52869997:0x56681566be3b8c88!8m2!3d52.000788!4d4.376707> >>> >>> >>> >>> <http://www.tno.nl/> >>> >>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If >>> you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, >>> you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts >>> no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you >>> use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the >>> electronic transmission of messages. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TopBraid Suite Users" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/topbraid-users/f0949410-8879-47a8-96a7-535938ec117b%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/topbraid-users/f0949410-8879-47a8-96a7-535938ec117b%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> >> UK +44 (0) 7788 561308 >> US +1 (336) 283-0808 >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TopBraid Suite Users" group. 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