*************
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
************
Hi David
When i first found TROM I only had the book that was available in the feezone,
was working full time and commuting 3 hours a day so could not put much extra
time into doing anything but read the book and work and drive.
A year and a quarter ago i retired so have been able to spend full time on
doing several projects like the transcripts with the TROM material.
You are right that the learning curve is extremely difficult using the TROM
book. I read the book 17 times through to start to get a clear picture of what
Dennis was talking about.
I did this because the first time i read the book, despite many poor
comprehensions on the subject, i turned on vivid full color pictures of past
lives just from reading the book. it was obvious that there was something
important there.
When i read DMSMH it did not turn on any past life pictures and it required a
co auditor. My confront was not up to being able to deliver auditing to a PC
where i did not understand how to apply the auditing competently. DMSMH would
not work for me despite having a number of good ideas. i joined the church and
the Sea Org to try and get enough training to do the auditing but it didn't
work out.
TROM on the other hand does not have the 3rd dynamic problems of applying the
tech so for me that is a big plus.
i sought out more information onTROM in the hopes of getting a better
understanding of what Dennis had developed. i was lucky to find that the people
Dennis first worked with were still alive (Terry Scott, Judith Methven, Ant
Phillips and Judith Anderson) it turned out Judith Anderson had the 60 tapes of
TROM material in her closet so i had her ship it to me and uploaded it all to
www.tromhelp.com
The Insanity Point Lectures are a big help as a starting point to understanding
TROM so I hope everyone will read these transcrips and get the Boolean algebra
he uses to ease into understand TROM.
To me TROM is crystal clear. Dennis maps out what the mind is made of
(postulates in conflict) and that timebreaking can unravel the conflicts and
reduce the importances on the games in a self help procedure.
This understanding comes from reading TOM 17 times and typing out each of the
lectures as documents which requires that i duplicate each and every word
Dennis is saying. i think i am safe in saying that no one else on the planet
has done this intense a study of TROM.
So i can understand that others do not have the grasp of the material that i
have. i dramatize leg 3 must be known. people with out this affliction will be
less persistent and find TROM to difficult.
I am still a student and have not put in enough hours auditing the material on
myself to expect to be Level 5 completeion just from the hours i have put in.
it was an important realization recently that on trying an E-meter for the
first time i many years i still had a problem with High Tone Arm and found the
solutioin in the Clearbird book. It is curious that the Flag auditing i had did
not turn up this old problem despite the auditors noting my high TA and having
me put on hand cream to get it down.
> My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result of
> extra ordinary and extended effort.
Wow that's a nice complement but i hope it doesn't take a huge IQ for others to
learn TROM.
>
> (At the same time, I often get the sense and see indicators, that you are
> not doing as well as you claim with TROM.
>
> Why is that?
Quite correct. i was working over an incomplete level 3 so could not make level
5 produce steady gains. i must go back and work levels 2 and 3 to a correct
end phenomon of normal TA and floating needle on everything fom my past before
i reattempt level 5.
on time and money. TROM is the cheapest therapy in the world. Wealth is a
state of haveing sufficient savings or income to pay your bills for a period of
time without working at a job. People become wealthy by either reducing their
expenses or increasing their unearned income till they do not have to work a
job and are free to spend ther time as they please. With TROM it's possibe to
take the book and go live in a tent in the wood so you are free to audit every
day if you want.
it sounds to me like you have studied DMSMH as intently as i have studied TROM.
i can uderstand the argument that others could not do it so it must no work but
my life experience has shown me that others fail for many reasons and that
should not discourage me in my endeavors.
i also recognize that others dramatze other legs of the "to Learn" goals
package and a self help program with a steep learning curve is not going to
work for everyone.
Hope that answers your questions. always happy to talk to you
Sincerely
Pete
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 1, 2012, at 2:09 PM, "David M. Pelly" <[email protected]> wrote:
> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
> ************
> Pete,
>
>
> I also tend to be very left brained, reason, logic, scientific minded and
> engineering oriented.
>
>
>
> (As a matter of fact, anything other than using reason to figure out and
> understand something is at least intellectual ineptness or out right
> intellectual dishonesty or a form of insanity.
>
> People who do say they are right brained, are actually attempting to
> explain or justify their state of insanity, their inability to understand
> logic, or in other words understand common sense.
>
> They call themselves the artsy types, which btw is mostly bullshit. They
> are only arguing to defend their ignorance or and insanity. )
>
>
>
> In regards to eastern stuff;
>
> You put the word to how I found eastern spirituality and eastern philosophy
> that I could not easily find. (confusing)
>
> (and I would now add, non problem solving, more of a sedative than anything
> else, more so than other stuff I was into before scn)
>
>
> But I found Dianetics very clear and well written. I read it seven or eight
> times. It was a breath of fresh air for me.
>
> I want to read it again, but don't have enough time. (One of my next goals
> is to learn to photo read. That is to take an optic mental picture snapshot
> of a page and comprehend it in that time. ) :)
>
> Although, at first, I did have a hard time understanding the book;
> Dianetics, the modern science of mental health.
>
> I would read a few pages and bog down, then go back and restart. I did this
> about three times, each time getting further into the book, then it began to
> flow and I could not put it down. I was overwhelmed with what Hubbard
> discovered. It began to put everything else I read prior into alignment and
> become useful.
>
> (Thanks to someone I met some 10 yrs earlier who told me that it is good to
> read stuff that one cannot understand. But there is a limit to everything,
> as I discovered with TROM.)
>
> BTW>>> I had a short lived, very nice and relieving release from insanity,
> from my dianetics demo. My first session. That win sold me on the stuff. It
> also saved my life.
>
>
>
> Now contrary to that...and what you say....Pete.....
>
>
>
> I find Dennis' writing extremely confusing, poorly written, way to steep
> of a gradient, and has many false and misleading datums and even at least
> one lie.
>
>
>
> Many ex scientologists ( a few very competent ones and very knowledgeable
> ones, who came before us in TROM had very similar problems, as I and others
> do, and some were when Dennis was still alive, and they personally knew him
> and asked him to explain problems with TROM, ending up in futility, and got
> totally frustrated with him and totally pissed off, sometimes using very
> unbecoming, colorful vulgar words to describe him, and throw TROM out the
> window.
>
> (In Dennis' eulogy, his wife described him as a saint. I shudder and squirm
> when I read that. I surely sense something wrong with that.)
>
>
> So I can't imagine how you could be honest in your espousing viewpoint on
> TROM and I therefore can only think you are very misleading.
>
>
>
> I can't imagine how your viewpoint on TROM could be as you say, from the
> beginning, or anywhere up until more recently, you made the postulate to be
> the TROM site or list leader or facilitator or keeper, or what ever you want
> to call the position, or effort, and gather up and organize and transcribe
> and post or publish the small mountain of tangled TROM data, as you have
> done on the TROM help site.
>
>
>
>
> My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result of
> extra ordinary and extended effort.
>
>
>
>
> (At the same time, I often get the sense and see indicators, that you are
> not doing as well as you claim with TROM.
>
> Why is that?
>
> A few days ago, your posts were totally incoherent and not worth
> responding to. That is why I did not respond to them. I did not know what to
> say, or how to deal with it.)
>
>
>
>
> Futhermore: I am not aware of any person completing TROM and reaching the
> state that Dennis claims (other than Slim, of which I will address later).
>
> (I highly doubt that even Dennis himself reached that state.)
>
>
>
>
> Further more you have to be retired and on adequate pension, with little or
> nothing else to do, to be able to devote that much time and effort to the
> TROM cause.
>
> Few people have that luxury.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Slim,
>
>
> You are the only one that claims to have reached that illusive state.
>
> But you also are not exactly honest and or forthcoming (therefore misleading)
> on how you got to have the success you claim to have.
>
> (At the same time, I suspect that there could be some spontaneous clearing
> factor or other contributing factor involved. )
>
>
>
>
> At least a few mitigating factors that you do not acknowledge on the list
> are:
>
>
>
> 1. You have done a considerable amount of the Scientology bridge and the
> considerable auditing that goes with it, many yrs ago.
>
> Which evidently still left you with a desire for more clearing, the
> motivating factor to seek out something else and finding TROM.
>
> (But you had to be close to clear from scn processing, before you go to TROM.
> TROM appears to be like the finishing carpenters do to work that the rough
> carpenters do on their construction projects, like houses.
>
>
>
> ( Qualifier: I know from my own brief experience, that scientology is at
> least very good stuff, ( to the best of my knowledge, it is the best on the
> planet, on the subject of clearing and spiritual healing) as far as it goes,
> but also often does not go far enough. It is not a complete subject, as many
> claim. )
>
>
>
>
> 2. You tried to do TROM over ten yrs ago and could not understand it.
>
> 3. Then you had to get to work and earn a living. Then you had the TROM book
> put in verbal form on cassette tapes and then you listened to them some
> forty times over in your car, over a period of ten yrs, while you worked on
> a job that required a lot of driving.
>
>
>
> You had ten yrs to listen and relisten and process and reprocess and
> reprocess the data in your mind.
>
> How many people have that set of almost idylic circumstances?
>
>
>
> 4. Then a couple of yrs ago, you retired from work and connected with this
> list and got into doing the TROM process again and according to you,
> sailed through the five levels.
>
> This is a kin to Michael Jordon or some other sports super star covertly
> competing in a junior competition.
>
>
> Few people have that opportunity and series of supporting circumstances to
> figure TROM out, and do it, if it indeed can be done.
>
>
>
>
>
> It really pisses me off the the way you guys arrogantly and conceitedly and
> disingenuously or misleadingly spout what you do.
>
>
>
>
> And also defend the false and limiting data embedded in TROM and the
> mistakes embedded in TROM, and the outright lie or lies embedded in TROM.
>
>
>
> The main lie is that anyone can do TROM.
>
> That is an absolute lie.
>
> My case is a particularly difficult one. My ability to work, maintain a job
> and have, (make money or and actually have something) is extremely low, in
> this life, if we indeed have lived others prior. I have evidence that this
> reincarnation idea, may well be one of the best deceptions going.
>
>
>
>
> I have had about 30 jobs in my life and pretty much got fired from everyone.
> Almost every penny I was able to make,( most was made with extreme effort
> and difficulty) went into trying to figure out what was wrong with me and
> efforts to fix it, with countless failures.
>
> I serendipitously, miraculously, via nothing less than an act of God, via a
> prayer, discovered and got into Dianetics and scn in 97.
>
>
>
> Only a couple of years ago, after getting into TROM, after being told by
> some one to try it, did I recall that I first saw the ad for the TROM book in
> the Free Spirit Journal, a magazine for freezone scientologists, ( for those
> on this list that do not know, it was the first significant common
> communication line (media) for free zone scientologists, before the
> internet came along) . That was roughly 1998 or 99. It was a great
> magazine.
>
>
>
> I ordered the book and tried to read it. I only now ( after overcoming some
> occlusion) recall trying to read it and figure it out and I would get a
> headache from the frustrating, complicated style of writing and a
> frustrating steep gradient ( which I only now realize) to booth.
>
> In the absence of money to pay for auditing, and therefore also in resulting
> desperation, I made several attempts over the following couple of yrs to
> read and understand the TROM book and process, and finally threw the book in
> the garbage, when I had to get rid of some stuff on a move, due to having too
> much stuff.
>
>
>
>
> So when I read and hear you guys exhort the idea of TROM or exhort the
> virtues of TROM, and pump it up, and deny or argue to defend the
> shortcomings of TROM, and your individual mitigating circumstances, you
> loose credibility, at least with those who know better.
>
>
>
> The worst lies are the cognitive set ups, the fabrications, laced with
> with- holds, false and limiting data, and lies that are hidden within what
> is posited as truth, then that "almost truth", and "sometimes truth", and
> "conditional truth" is relentlessly argued as an absolute truth, so far to
> no end.
>
>
>
>
> Then, furthermore, when some novice asks a question about some difficulty
> they are having with TROM, then you (Pete) say; go and read the archives of
> TROM list postings, as if some one or anyone has the time to go through all
> the posts and sort through all the bullshit, to find a morsel of valuable or
> helpful data. (This is almost like trying to find a needle in a hay stack.)
>
> This could take a year, or more, if a person had to work for a living, if he
> could do it all. All the while unnecessarily suffering his case, if he did
> have the mental where with all to do the reading and research. Such
> instructions are incredibly disingenuous and inconsiderate.
>
>
>
>
> Or read and articulate through a ton of confusing, mind twisting, mind
> numbing, transcripts, or listen to the tapes, with over loaded sentences
> which try to say too much in too few words, which in truth cause the mind to
> get stymied and tangled up into a mess like a pile of twine, to the point
> where a person wants to scream and pull their hair out in a fit of extreme
> agonizing, painful frustration.
>
> That is insanity in itself.
>
>
>
> (I mean, I qualify, I also know there is some truth to TROM, ( I am not
> denying or withholding that) I had a very good win with L2.
>
> ( and every bit of clearing certainly helps)
>
> But from there on, it became increasingly something akin to trying to do
> polynomial algebra equations in one's head. )
>
>
>
>
>
> Hubbard wisely said something to the effect of (I think it was in Hand book
> for Preclears) that if a person can not explain something simply, he does
> not understand it.
>
> Nothing could be more true.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Like Slim recently posted that he could also read the energy coming with list
> posts, I have become quite ept at doing that also.
>
> That includes the TROM manual and your's and Pete's and other's posts.
>
>
>
> I get a lot of what is actually going on in Dennis's mind, "what he is not
> saying", "the witholds" and mind games ( a product of his case) he is
> intentionally playing with his readers or listeners as the case may be. It
> comes through quite loud and clear for me. Same with Hubbard's stuff.
>
> I can't imagine Dennis being any more clear than Hubbard when he died.
>
> And any perceptually honest person in the know, knows that Hubbard was a
> total psychotic mess when he died.
>
> For those who do not have much knowledge or experience with scientology,
> Hubbard's condition very much contradicts the significant value of the work
> that he did leave behind.
>
> It is far from perfect, but is still the best stuff there is on the subject
> of resolving the problems of the mind and spirit. That is the nature of this
> field.
>
> It has been said that he had committed serious sins (overts as they are
> called in Scientologeze) that he did not confess too, which are amongst the
> most aberrating factors of one's case. One can only speculate, which is not a
> good thing to spend much time on.
>
>
>
>
> So it behooves me to think that you guys are telling the truth, when the
> several significantly experienced or even accomplished people that I met and
> commed with back channel in my frustrating attempts to understand TROM, have
> thrown it out the window, with disdain and went on to pursue other means of
> clearing.
>
>
> So if either of you guys do indeed understand TROM as well you claim to do,
> please, stop the bullshit and redo, clean up and rewrite TROM on a
> practical gradient, in simple lay language that anyone can understand.
>
>
> In other words, put your effort, where your mouth is.
>
>
>
> If TROM does have the ultimate value claimed, it would be best to have
> several people independently clean up, redo, rewrite TROM.
>
>
> And also in the mean time, when someone asks, explain things in language
> that is easy to understand, from a novices viewpoint.
>
> Many suffering newbies have come and gone because of the bullshit that has
> went on and continues to go on.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: [email protected]
> > Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:21:32 -0700
> > CC: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [TROM1] TROM is Good for Left Brain Thinkers
> >
> > *************
> > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
> > ************
> > Hi Colleen
> > I read some of the Zen Buddist materials and found it confusing. I think
> > you have hit it on the head. I am very left brained, egineering oriented
> > and the poetry of the eastern thinkers like Buddah doesn't communicate to
> > me.
> > I even have trouble with Hubbards work. I read Dianetic a couple of times
> > and coudn't figure out what he was getting at. He seemed to leave it open
> > as to weather there was any point when the preclear would be done with the
> > auditing.
> >
> > The beauty and Genius of Dennis's work is that it clearly and succinctly
> > states what the mind is made up of and therefor what I need to address in
> > auditing. No other study that I have encountered provided the whole
> > complete picture of what the mind is made of.
> >
> > The Insanity Point lectures which i recently transcribed spell out in
> > detail what the mind is made of and the "Unstacking Procedure lecture"
> > transcript that i will be uploading in a couple of days makes it clear that
> > everything in the mind is handled by the 5 levels of TROM.
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on TROMing
> > Pete
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Jul 1, 2012, at 6:56 AM, Colleen Peltomaa <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > *************
> > > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
> > > ************
> > > Many students and devotees of self-realized beings complain that their
> > > pointing and guidance is too vague. Many of these devotees have a
> > > Westernized type education, called "left-brained", and when I hop from
> > > reading Nisargadatta, for example, to reading Dennis, I am momentarily
> > > mentally jolted from right to left brain, and that experience made me see
> > > the value of Dennis' work, his precise chart. AHA! Finally, a detailed,
> > > accurate left-brained path to resolving the mind, and re-gaining
> > > awareness, or full self-realization.
> > >
> > > Ultimately, left and right brain dichotomies are resolved as postulates
> > > in conflict.
> > >
> > > cheers!
> > > colleen
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Trom mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
> > _______________________________________________
> > Trom mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
> _______________________________________________
> Trom mailing list
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> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
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