************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************
Well Glenn,
I have only done relatively little clearing, using a number of techniques, and I am not clear, but a heck of a lot clearer than I used to be. I feel like I have been pulled out from under a rock pile. Thanks to the various techs. David Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:42:54 -0400 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TROM1] To tell it the way it is...... ************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ IMO, there's no such thing as a clear. In the entire history of Scientology, no one has demonstrated a stable clear state, let alone the god-like powers of an OT. The reason is that clear is an absolute ideal, a utopia. All ideologies and fundamentalist religions revolve around an urgent and unending quest for an unattainable utopia. Clear, Nirvana, Ascension, the Rapture, a worker's paradise, a perfectly balanced free market, none of these exist in the real world, and I doubt they ever could. They are ideas kept alive by faith rather than discovered through observation. You may as well try to find Santa Claus. Hubbard postulated the existence of clear long before he ever declared someone clear, and spent the rest of his research days trying to prove it wasn't nonsense. That's not to say some of his methods were not helpful. But as with most self-help ideologies, the biggest wins are made on the lowest levels. I suspect that there is a point where the greatest possible gains have been made, and in most ideological systems that point arrives far sooner than anyone cares to acknowledge. After that, a person's participation is maintained by the carrot on the stick, fanaticism, and faith. That's why all these systems discourage doubt and objective criticism. On 7/1/2012 5:09 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > > > Pete, > > > I also tend to be very left brained, reason, logic, scientific minded and > engineering oriented. > > > > (As a matter of fact, anything other than using reason to figure out and > understand something is at least intellectual ineptness or out right > intellectual dishonesty or a form of insanity. > > People who do say they are right brained, are actually attempting to > explain or justify their state of insanity, their inability to understand > logic, or in other words understand common sense. > > They call themselves the artsy types, which btw is mostly bullshit. They > are only arguing to defend their ignorance or and insanity. ) > > > > In regards to eastern stuff; > > You put the word to how I found eastern spirituality and eastern philosophy > that I could not easily find. (confusing) > > (and I would now add, non problem solving, more of a sedative than anything > else, more so than other stuff I was into before scn) > > > But I found Dianetics very clear and well written. I read it seven or eight > times. It was a breath of fresh air for me. > > I want to read it again, but don't have enough time. (One of my next goals > is to learn to photo read. That is to take an optic mental picture snapshot > of a page and comprehend it in that time. ) :) > > Although, at first, I did have a hard time understanding the book; > Dianetics, the modern science of mental health. > > I would read a few pages and bog down, then go back and restart. I did > this about three times, each time getting further into the book, then it > began to flow and I could not put it down. I was overwhelmed with what > Hubbard discovered. It began to put everything else I read prior into > alignment and become useful. > > (Thanks to someone I met some 10 yrs earlier who told me that it is good to > read stuff that one cannot understand. But there is a limit to everything, > as I discovered with TROM.) > > BTW>>> I had a short lived, very nice and relieving release from insanity, > from my dianetics demo. My first session. That win sold me on the stuff. It > also saved my life. > > > > Now contrary to that...and what you say....Pete..... > > > > I find Dennis' writing extremely confusing, poorly written, way to steep > of a gradient, and has many false and misleading datums and even at least > one lie. > > > > Many ex scientologists ( a few very competent ones and very knowledgeable > ones, who came before us in TROM had very similar problems, as I and others > do, and some were when Dennis was still alive, and they personally knew him > and asked him to explain problems with TROM, ending up in futility, and got > totally frustrated with him and totally pissed off, sometimes using very > unbecoming, colorful vulgar words to describe him, and throw TROM out the > window. > > (In Dennis' eulogy, his wife described him as a saint. I shudder and squirm > when I read that. I surely sense something wrong with that.) > > > So I can't imagine how you could be honest in your espousing viewpoint on > TROM and I therefore can only think you are very misleading. > > > > I can't imagine how your viewpoint on TROM could be as you say, from the > beginning, or anywhere up until more recently, you made the postulate to be > the TROM site or list leader or facilitator or keeper, or what ever you want > to call the position, or effort, and gather up and organize and transcribe > and post or publish the small mountain of tangled TROM data, as you have > done on the TROM help site. > > > > > My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result of > extra ordinary and extended effort. > > > > > (At the same time, I often get the sense and see indicators, that you are > not doing as well as you claim with TROM. > > Why is that? > > A few days ago, your posts were totally incoherent and not worth > responding to. That is why I did not respond to them. I did not know what to > say, or how to deal with it.) > > > > > Futhermore: I am not aware of any person completing TROM and reaching the > state that Dennis claims (other than Slim, of which I will address later). > > (I highly doubt that even Dennis himself reached that state.) > > > > > Further more you have to be retired and on adequate pension, with little or > nothing else to do, to be able to devote that much time and effort to the > TROM cause. > > Few people have that luxury. > > > > > > > > Slim, > > > You are the only one that claims to have reached that illusive state. > > But you also are not exactly honest and or forthcoming (therefore misleading) > on how you got to have the success you claim to have. > > (At the same time, I suspect that there could be some spontaneous clearing > factor or other contributing factor involved. ) > > > > > At least a few mitigating factors that you do not acknowledge on the list > are: > > > > 1. You have done a considerable amount of the Scientology bridge and the > considerable auditing that goes with it, many yrs ago. > > Which evidently still left you with a desire for more clearing, the > motivating factor to seek out something else and finding TROM. > > (But you had to be close to clear from scn processing, before you go to TROM. > TROM appears to be like the finishing carpenters do to work that the rough > carpenters do on their construction projects, like houses. > > > > ( Qualifier: I know from my own brief experience, that scientology is at > least very good stuff, ( to the best of my knowledge, it is the best on the > planet, on the subject of clearing and spiritual healing) as far as it goes, > but also often does not go far enough. It is not a complete subject, as many > claim. ) > > > > > 2. You tried to do TROM over ten yrs ago and could not understand it IMO, there's no such thing as a clear. In the entire history of Scientology, no one has demonstrated a stable clear state, let alone the god-like powers of an OT. The reason is that clear is an absolute ideal, a utopia. All ideologies and fundamentalist religions revolve around an urgent and unending quest for an unattainable utopia. Clear, Nirvana, Ascension, the Rapture, a worker's paradise, a perfectly balanced free market, none of these exist in the real world, and I doubt they ever could. They are ideas kept alive by faith rather than discovered through observation. You may as well try to find Santa Claus. Hubbard postulated the existence of clear long before he ever declared someone clear, and spent the rest of his research days trying to prove it wasn't nonsense. That's not to say some of his methods were not helpful. But as with most self-help ideologies, the biggest wins are made on the lowest levels. I suspect that there is a point where the greatest possible gains have been made, and in most ideological systems that point arrives far sooner than anyone cares to acknowledge. After that, a person's participation is maintained by the carrot on the stick, fanaticism, and faith. That's why all these systems discourage doubt and objective criticism. On 7/1/2012 5:09 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: ************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ Pete, I also tend to be very left brained, reason, logic, scientific minded and engineering oriented. (As a matter of fact, anything other than using reason to figure out and understand something is at least intellectual ineptness or out right intellectual dishonesty or a form of insanity. People who do say they are right brained, are actually attempting to explain or justify their state of insanity, their inability to understand logic, or in other words understand common sense. They call themselves the artsy types, which btw is mostly bullshit. They are only arguing to defend their ignorance or and insanity. ) In regards to eastern stuff; You put the word to how I found eastern spirituality and eastern philosophy that I could not easily find. (confusing) (and I would now add, non problem solving, more of a sedative than anything else, more so than other stuff I was into before scn) But I found Dianetics very clear and well written. I read it seven or eight times. It was a breath of fresh air for me. I want to read it again, but don't have enough time. (One of my next goals is to learn to photo read. That is to take an optic mental picture snapshot of a page and comprehend it in that time. ) :) Although, at first, I did have a hard time understanding the book; Dianetics, the modern science of mental health. I would read a few pages and bog down, then go back and restart. I did this about three times, each time getting further into the book, then it began to flow and I could not put it down. I was overwhelmed with what Hubbard discovered. It began to put everything else I read prior into alignment and become useful. (Thanks to someone I met some 10 yrs earlier who told me that it is good to read stuff that one cannot understand. But there is a limit to everything, as I discovered with TROM.) BTW>>> I had a short lived, very nice and relieving release from insanity, from my dianetics demo. My first session. That win sold me on the stuff. It also saved my life. Now contrary to that...and what you say....Pete..... I find Dennis' writing extremely confusing, poorly written, way to steep of a gradient, and has many false and misleading datums and even at least one lie. Many ex scientologists ( a few very competent ones and very knowledgeable ones, who came before us in TROM had very similar problems, as I and others do, and some were when Dennis was still alive, and they personally knew him and asked him to explain problems with TROM, ending up in futility, and got totally frustrated with him and totally pissed off, sometimes using very unbecoming, colorful vulgar words to describe him, and throw TROM out the window. (In Dennis' eulogy, his wife described him as a saint. I shudder and squirm when I read that. I surely sense something wrong with that.) So I can't imagine how you could be honest in your espousing viewpoint on TROM and I therefore can only think you are very misleading. I can't imagine how your viewpoint on TROM could be as you say, from the beginning, or anywhere up until more recently, you made the postulate to be the TROM site or list leader or facilitator or keeper, or what ever you want to call the position, or effort, and gather up and organize and transcribe and post or publish the small mountain of tangled TROM data, as you have done on the TROM help site. My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result of extra ordinary and extended effort. (At the same time, I often get the sense and see indicators, that you are not doing as well as you claim with TROM. Why is that? A few days ago, your posts were totally incoherent and not worth responding to. That is why I did not respond to them. I did not know what to say, or how to deal with it.) Futhermore: I am not aware of any person completing TROM and reaching the state that Dennis claims (other than Slim, of which I will address later). (I highly doubt that even Dennis himself reached that state.) Further more you have to be retired and on adequate pension, with little or nothing else to do, to be able to devote that much time and effort to the TROM cause. Few people have that luxury. Slim, You are the only one that claims to have reached that illusive state. But you also are not exactly honest and or forthcoming (therefore misleading) on how you got to have the success you claim to have. (At the same time, I suspect that there could be some spontaneous clearing factor or other contributing factor involved. ) At least a few mitigating factors that you do not acknowledge on the list are: 1. You have done a considerable amount of the Scientology bridge and the considerable auditing that goes with it, many yrs ago. Which evidently still left you with a desire for more clearing, the motivating factor to seek out something else and finding TROM. (But you had to be close to clear from scn processing, before you go to TROM. TROM appears to be like the finishing carpenters do to work that the rough carpenters do on their construction projects, like houses. ( Qualifier: I know from my own brief experience, that scientology is at least very good stuff, ( to the best of my knowledge, it is the best on the planet, on the subject of clearing and spiritual healing) as far as it goes, but also often does not go far enough. It is not a complete subject, as many claim. ) 2. You tried to do TROM over ten yrs ago and could not understand it _______________________________________________ Trom mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
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