*************
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
************
Well Glenn,
I have only done relatively little clearing, using a number of
techniques,
and I am not clear,
but a heck of a lot clearer than I used to be.
I feel like I have been pulled out from under a rock pile.
Thanks to the various techs.
David
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:42:54 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TROM1] To tell it the way it is......
< br>
*************
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
************
IMO, there's no such thing as a clear. In the entire history of
Scientology, no one has demonstrated a stable clear state, let alone
the god-like powers of an OT. The reason is that clear is an absolute
ideal, a utopia. All ideologies and fundamentalist religions revolve
around an urgent and unending quest for an unattainable utopia. Clear,
Nirvana, Ascension, the Rapture, a worker's paradise, a perfectly
balanced free market, none of these exist in the real world, and I
doubt they ever could. They are ideas kept alive by faith rather than
discovered through observation. You may as well try to find Santa
Claus. Hubbard postulated the existence of clear long before he ever
declared someone clear, and spent the rest of his research days trying
to prove it wasn't nonsense. That's not to say some of his methods
were not helpful. But as with most self-help ideologies, the biggest
wins are made on the lowest levels. I suspect that there is a point
where the greatest possible gains have been made, and in most
ideological systems that point arrives far sooner than anyone cares to
acknowledge. After that, a person's participation is maintained by the
carrot on the stick, fanaticism, and faith. That's why all these
systems discourage doubt and objective criticism. On 7/1/2012 5:09 PM,
David M. Pelly wrote: > ************* > The following message is
relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > > > Pete, > >
> I also tend to be very left brained, reason, logic, scientific
minded and engineering oriented. > > > > (As a matter of fact,
anything other than using reason to figure out and understand
something is at least intellectual ineptness or out right intellectual
dishonesty or a form of insanity. > > People who do say they are right
brained, are actually attempting to explain or justify their state of
insanity, their inability to understand logic, or in other words
understand common sense. > > They call themselves the artsy types,
which btw is mostly bullshit. They are only arguing to defend their
ignorance or and insanity. ) > > > > In regards to eastern stuff; > >
You put the word to how I found eastern spirituality and eastern
philosophy that I could not easily find. (confusing) > > (and I would
now add, non problem solving, more of a sedative than anything else,
more so than other stuff I was into before scn) > > > But I found
Dianetics very clear and well written. I read it seven or eight times.
It was a breath of fresh air for me. > > I want to read it again, but
don't have enough time. (One of my next goals is to learn to photo
read. That is to take an optic mental picture snapshot of a page and
comprehend it in that time. ) :) > > Although, at first, I did have a
hard time understanding the book; Dianetics, the modern science of
mental health. > > I would read a few pages and bog down, then go back
and restart. I did this about three times, each time getting further
into the book, then it began to flow and I could not put it down. I
was overwhelmed with what Hubbard discovered. It began to put
everything else I read prior into alignment and become useful. > >
(Thanks to someone I met some 10 yrs earlier who told me that it is
good to read stuff that one cannot understand. But there is a limit to
everything, as I discovered with TROM.) > > BTW>>> I had a short
lived, very nice and relieving release from insanity, from my
dianetics demo. My first session. That win sold me on the stuff. It
also saved my life. > > > > Now contrary to that...and what you
say....Pete..... > > > > I find Dennis' writing extremely confusing,
poorly written, way to steep of a gradient, and has many false and
misleading datums and even at least one lie. > > > > Many ex
scientologists ( a few very competent ones and very knowledgeable
ones, who came before us in TROM had very similar problems, as I and
others do, and some were when Dennis was still alive, and they
personally knew him and asked him to explain problems with TROM,
ending up in futility, and got totally frustrated with him and totally
pissed off, sometimes using very unbecoming, colorful vulgar words to
describe him, and throw TROM out the window. > > (In Dennis' eulogy,
his wife described him as a saint. I shudder and squirm when I read
that. I surely sense something wrong with that.) > > > So I can't
imagine how you could be honest in your espousing viewpoint on TROM
and I therefore can only think you are very misleading. > > > > I
can't imagine how your viewpoint on TROM could be as you say, from the
beginning, or anywhere up until more recently, you made the postulate
to be the TROM site or list leader or facilitator or keeper, or what
ever you want to call the position, or effort, and gather up and
organize and transcribe and post or publish the small mountain of
tangled TROM data, as you have done on the TROM help site. > > > > >
My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result
of extra ordinary and extended effort. > > > > > (At the same time, I
often get the sense and see indicators, that you are not doing as well
as you claim with TROM. > > Why is that? > > A few days ago, your
posts were totally incoherent and not worth responding to. That is why
I did not respond to them. I did not know what to say, or how to deal
with it.) > > > > > Futhermore: I am not aware of any person
completing TROM and reaching the state that Dennis claims (other than
Slim, of which I will address later). > > (I highly doubt that even
Dennis himself reached that state.) > > > > > Further more you have to
be retired and on adequate pension, with little or nothing else to do,
to be able to devote that much time and effort to the TROM cause. > >
Few people have that luxury. > > > > > > > > Slim, > > > You are the
only one that claims to have reached that illusive state. > > But you
also are not exactly honest and or forthcoming (therefore misleading)
on how you got to have the success you claim to have. > > (At the same
time, I suspect that there could be some spontaneous clearing factor
or other contributing factor involved. ) > > > > > At least a few
mitigating factors that you do not acknowledge on the list are: > > >
> 1. You have done a considerable amount of the Scientology bridge and
the considerable auditing that goes with it, many yrs ago. > > Which
evidently still left you with a desire for more clearing, the
motivating factor to seek out something else and finding TROM. > >
(But you had to be close to clear from scn processing, before you go
to TROM. TROM appears to be like the finishing carpenters do to work
that the rough carpenters do on their construction projects, like
houses. > > > > ( Qualifier: I know from my own brief experience, that
scientology is at least very good stuff, ( to the best of my
knowledge, it is the best on the planet, on the subject of clearing
and spiritual healing) as far as it goes, but also often does not go
far enough. It is not a complete subject, as many claim. ) > > > > >
2. You tried to do TROM over ten yrs ago and could not understand it
IMO, there's no such thing as a clear. In the entire history of
Scientology, no one has demonstrated a stable clear state, let alone
the god-like powers of an OT.
The reason is that clear is an absolute ideal, a utopia. All
ideologies and fundamentalist religions revolve around an urgent and
unending quest for an unattainable utopia. Clear, Nirvana, Ascension,
the Rapture, a worker's paradise, a perfectly balanced free market,
none of these exist in the real world, and I doubt they ever could.
They are ideas kept alive by faith rather than discovered through
observation. You may as well try to find Santa Claus.
Hubbard postulated the existence of clear long before he ever declared
someone clear, and spent the rest of his research days trying to prove
it wasn't nonsense.
That's not to say some of his methods were not helpful. But as with
most self-help ideologies, the biggest wins are made on the lowest levels.
I suspect that there is a point where the greatest possible gains have
been made, and in most ideological systems that point arrives far
sooner than anyone cares to acknowledge. After that, a person's
participation is maintained by the carrot on the stick, fanaticism,
and faith.
That's why all these systems discourage doubt and objective criticism.
On 7/1/2012 5:09 PM, David M. Pelly wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
************
Pete,
I also tend to be very left brained, reason, logic, scientific minded and
engineering oriented.
(As a matter of fact, anything other than using reason to figure out and
understand something is at least intellectual ineptness or out right
intellectual dishonesty or a form of insanity.
People who do say they are right brained, are actually attempting to
explain or justify their state of insanity, their inability to understand
logic, or in other words understand common sense.
They call themselves the artsy types, which btw is mostly bullshit. They
are only arguing to defend their ignorance or and insanity. )
In regards to eastern stuff;
You put the word to how I found eastern spirituality and eastern
philosophy that I could not easily find. (confusing)
(and I would now add, non problem solving, more of a sedative than anything
else, more so than other stuff I was into before scn)
But I found Dianetics very clear and well written. I read it seven or
eight times. It was a breath of fresh air for me.
I want to read it again, but don't have enough time. (One of my next goals
is to learn to photo read. That is to take an optic mental picture snapshot of
a page and comprehend it in that time. ) :)
Although, at first, I did have a hard time understanding the book;
Dianetics, the modern science of mental health.
I would read a few pages and bog down, then go back and restart. I did
this about three times, each time getting further into the book, then it began
to flow and I could not put it down. I was overwhelmed with what Hubbard
discovered. It began to put everything else I read prior into alignment and
become useful.
(Thanks to someone I met some 10 yrs earlier who told me that it is good
to read stuff that one cannot understand. But there is a limit to everything,
as I discovered with TROM.)
BTW>>> I had a short lived, very nice and relieving release from
insanity, from my dianetics demo. My first session. That win sold me on the stuff. It
also saved my life.
Now contrary to that...and what you say....Pete.....
I find Dennis' writing extremely confusing, poorly written, way to steep
of a gradient, and has many false and misleading datums and even at least one
lie.
Many ex scientologists ( a few very competent ones and very knowledgeable
ones, who came before us in TROM had very similar problems, as I and others
do, and some were when Dennis was still alive, and they personally knew him
and asked him to explain problems with TROM, ending up in futility, and got
totally frustrated with him and totally pissed off, sometimes using very
unbecoming, colorful vulgar words to describe him, and throw TROM out the
window.
(In Dennis' eulogy, his wife described him as a saint. I shudder and
squirm when I read that. I surely sense something wrong with that.)
So I can't imagine how you could be honest in your espousing viewpoint on
TROM and I therefore can only think you are very misleading.
I can't imagine how your viewpoint on TROM could be as you say, from the
beginning, or anywhere up until more recently, you made the postulate to be the
TROM site or list leader or facilitator or keeper, or what ever you want to
call the position, or effort, and gather up and organize and transcribe and
post or publish the small mountain of tangled TROM data, as you have done on
the TROM help site.
My point is that if you do indeed understand it, it came as a result of
extra ordinary and extended effort.
(At the same time, I often get the sense and see indicators, that you are
not doing as well as you claim with TROM.
Why is that?
A few days ago, your posts were totally incoherent and not worth
responding to. That is why I did not respond to them. I did not know what to
say, or how to deal with it.)
Futhermore: I am not aware of any person completing TROM and reaching the
state that Dennis claims (other than Slim, of which I will address later).
(I highly doubt that even Dennis himself reached that state.)
Further more you have to be retired and on adequate pension, with little or
nothing else to do, to be able to devote that much time and effort to the TROM
cause.
Few people have that luxury.
Slim,
You are the only one that claims to have reached that illusive state.
But you also are not exactly honest and or forthcoming (therefore
misleading) on how you got to have the success you claim to have.
(At the same time, I suspect that there could be some spontaneous clearing
factor or other contributing factor involved. )
At least a few mitigating factors that you do not acknowledge on the list
are:
1. You have done a considerable amount of the Scientology bridge and the
considerable auditing that goes with it, many yrs ago.
Which evidently still left you with a desire for more clearing, the
motivating factor to seek out something else and finding TROM.
(But you had to be close to clear from scn processing, before you go to
TROM. TROM appears to be like the finishing carpenters do to work that the
rough carpenters do on their construction projects, like houses.
( Qualifier: I know from my own brief experience, that scientology is at
least very good stuff, ( to the best of my knowledge, it is the best on the
planet, on the subject of clearing and spiritual healing) as far as it goes,
but also often does not go far enough. It is not a complete subject, as many
claim. )
2. You tried to do TROM over ten yrs ago and could not understand it
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