David Miller wrote: >> An important distinction here is that I would NEVER say that the OT >> Scriptures caused people to stumble and an exceedingly great number of >> people to come under the power of Satan. NEVER!
DAVEH: > Nor would I. But Joseph Smith did when he wrote 1 Nephi 13:29. It seems to me that you disagree with the Book of Mormon. DAVEH: > ... if the OT were sufficient alone, would there be any need for the NT? No, there is no need for a New Testament. Many people were marvelously saved and entering God's kingdom before there was any New Testament. However, the New Testament is a valid witness of the doctrine and lives of these early believers. The New Testament might not be necessary, but it is a helpful and true witness. David Miller wrote: >> It does not bring people under Satan's power because >> of "missing parts" even if those missing parts were the >> entire New Testament. DAVEH: > As I have repeatedly stated......it is NOT the revealed Word > of the Lord that gives Satan power among men. It is the LACK > of the revealed Word of God that is the problem. Can you imagine > the effect on the Christian world IF the NT were suddenly taken > away? I am surprised that you would not agree with me on this. Are you now trying to say that God has held back from revealing his Word? You are not making logical sense. God has revealed his Word. Some men have attempted to alter God's Word. Nevertheless, we still have God's revealed Word. In written form, God's revealed Word can be found in the Bible. Now, according to the Book of Mormon, an exceedingly great many are brought under Satan's power by the Bible because of the "plain and precious parts" which have supposedly been taken out of it. I flatly disagree with this charge. Despite whatever problems the Bible might have had in the historical past, it is a great tool of God used to enlighten men and bring mankind into the Kingdom of God. Men are not brought under the power of Satan because of any alledged parts that have been removed from the Bible. The Book of Mormon is wrong on this point. David Miller wrote: >> The Bible tells us all we need to know about water baptism. DAVEH wrote: > Then how do you explain the disparity of beliefs? > The RCC seem to think baptism is pretty necessary, > as do the CofC and who knows what other denominations. > Seems to me there is some confusion and stumbling over > what the Bible says about baptism. The Mormons appear to be more confused over what the Bible teaches about baptism than perhaps any other Christian sect. Sure, there are different ideas taught about baptism, but that doesn't mean that the Bible does not address the subject sufficiently. It just means that people prefer to twist the Scriptures and believe what they want to about it. David Miller wrote: >>>> Is it or is it not the alledged altered Bible that brings >>>> people under Satan's power, DAVEH: >>> I don't read it that way at all. The problem is >>> the lack of information. David Miller wrote: >> A lack of information does not lead anyone anywhere. >> Are you led to something by what I don't say? DAVEH: > IF I start assuming you said something that you didn't > (as Glenn has done to me), then I would be led to a > misunderstanding at best, and an outright untruth at > the worst. Yes DavidM.......a "lack of information" has > caused many faulty conclusions and actions. I'm > surprised you would even make that statement. You are changing the subject now. Sure, a lack of knowledge might cause a person who is presumptuous to go down the right path. However, what is not said is not what brings people under the power of Satan. Even in such a situation, it is the person who makes decisions without knowledge that is at fault. The Book of Mormon says that the Bible, because of parts that has been removed from it, bring an exceedingly great many people under the power of Satan. Such a notion is false and not inspired by God. David Miller wrote: >> The only possible meaning here is that the Bible in its >> present form is misleading people and bringing them under >> the power of Satan. You can certainly alledge that this is >> because somebody removed important parts of it, but you >> must agree that it is the Bible, not the removed parts, which >> is supposedly leading people in a way such that they are >> brought under Satan's power. DAVEH: > You could not be more wrong. 1 Nephi 13:28-29 "... thou seest that after the book [Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church ... because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them." How can you possibly think that I am wrong on this point? The passage says that the church has gone after the Bible, and that because the Bible is missing many things, the people going after it stumble, insomuch that Satan has great power over them. David Miller wrote: > > I think the reason you don't read the passage for what it says is because > > you feel compelled to make it truth even when it is not. You approach it > > with the preconceived notion that it is God's Word, so you do whatever it > > takes to make it work. The passage blatantly accuses Scripture of being > > altered to the point of being used to bring an exceedingly great many people > > under Satan's power. DAVEH: > I respectfully disagree. Your response doesn't tell me much. Surely you are not just being stubborn and refusing to hear my point, are you? David Miller wrote: > > In contrast, Jesus said, > > "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one >> jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law..." (Mat 5:18) DAVEH: > Which IMHO is distinctly different than the Bible we have > now. The Bible has been with us for a specific time, but the > law is eternal. Read the context and you will see that Jesus was talking about the Scriptures which they had at that time, the law and the prophets. The passage speaks of God's Providence to preserve a written testimony, even when someone like Jesus comes to usher in new things. David Miller wrote: >> I understand that you do not put blame upon God for the >> "altered Bible." However, your sage, Joseph Smith, said >> that this Bible brings people under the power of Satan. DAVEH wrote: > This is nonsense, DavidM. Now you are quoting GLENN's > assumed quote of Blaine......... No, I am quoting the writing of Joseph Smith, from 1 Nephi 13:28-30. DaveH wrote: > ....comment??? Why do you and Glenn insist on putting > words into other peoples' mouths? I have quoted 1 Nephi 13:28-30 numerous times. You guys just ignore the passage, then deny what it says later. Maybe you should take some time and quote the passage yourself and perhaps explain how it is not talking about the Bible. Until Blaine expounded upon the passage, I wasn't sure you would agree that it was talking about the Bible. Once Blaine told us that it was talking about the Bible, and that the Bible was missing parts and thereby causing problems without the Book of Mormon to clarify things which are unclear in the Bible, then I understood why you and Blaine hold the Book of Mormon above the Bible. DAVEH: > To repeat, it isn't the Bible (NIV or any other version) that is the problem > when parts are removed. It is the removed parts themselves which are the > problem. Once they are gone, how can one know what the Lord revealed > there. How about the Holy Spirit? Isn't he given to lead and guide us into all truth? What you fail to see is that if a part is missing, it cannot have any effect on someone, either good or bad, unless the part that it was taken from continues on. The Book of Mormon very clearly castigates the Bible as being something altered to the point that men are brought under Satan's power. If you insist upon saying that the missing parts themselves are somehow bringing people under Satan's power (and we agree that those missing parts are Divinely Inspired, the Word of God), then you are going to hear even greater objections from me concerning the notion that it is the Word of God itself that is no longer in the Bible that is bringing people under Satan's power. David Miller wrote: > > I have no problem with the idea that the Bible does not contain all things > > spoken by God to men. What I have a problem with is saying that the Bible > > is so corrupted that it brings people under the power of Satan. If the > > Bible brings people under the power of Satan, DAVEH: > You continue to make that allegation. I repeat.... > that is not what was said. It is what your Book of Mormon says in 1 Nephi 13:28-30. DAVEH wrote: > You are saying that if part of the Word of God is missing, you > would reject the remaining part of the Word of God??? No, I would reject the entire collection as being God's Word. If there is one blemish in the collection, then it is on the same level as the Qur'an or other books which have truth contained in them but also present falsehoods along with it. David Miller wrote: >> ... this does not mean that God cannot still preserve his Word >> for future generations despite the actions of evil men. DAVEH: > Agreed. The question then becomes, "how can the Lord do > an end run around evil men?" Seldom does he act in ways > that we would expect. IOW.....would he force men against > their free will to not make those additions/subtractions? No, he will give wisdom to some not to accept these "additions/subtractions." For example, while Joseph Smith is free to create the Book of Mormon and become wealthy through its sale, others can see through the charade and not follow him. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
