PART 1 David Miller wrote:
> DaveH: > >>> It is "these things which are taken out of the Gospel" > >>> that cause people stumble. > > David Miller wrote: > >> If there were things taken out of the Gospel, they were > >> good things, not bad things. So how could these good > >> things of God cause people to stumble? > >> Your reasoning is not logical. > > DAVEH: > > Take away the NT from the Bible, and what do you > > have left.....Jews. It is not that the OT is bad, but it is > > incomplete. That may be an extreme example, but > > to suggest that lacking any of the Word of the Lord > > would not cause people to stumble seems a bit dicey > > to me. > > An important distinction here is that I would NEVER say that the OT > Scriptures caused people to stumble and an exceedingly great number of > people to come under the power of Satan.� NEVER! DAVEH:� Nor would I.� I implied it is the lack of belief in the Lord's gospel in the NT that has caused the Jews to stumble.� Essentially, the Jews have rejected the message of the NT, which is causing their damnation (impedance of their eternal progression.)� Once they accept Jesus (and the message of the NT), Satan's power over them will diminish. > �The New Testament > Scriptures certainly are helpful in bringing many into the Kingdom of God, > but the OT Scriptures likewise are helpful and reveal God to people. DAVEH:� Agreed.� But if the OT were sufficient alone, would there be any need for the NT? > �It > does not bring people under Satan's power because of "missing parts" even if > those missing parts were the entire New Testament. DAVEH:� As I have repeatedly stated......it is NOT the revealed Word of the Lord that gives Satan power among men.� It is the LACK of the revealed Word of God that is the problem.� Can you imagine the effect on the Christian world IF the NT were suddenly taken away?� I am surprised that you would not agree with me on this. > DaveH wrote: > > Simpler examples might be doctrines surrounding the > > baptism of children. If Jesus had said not to baptize > > them, and that was either removed or not recorded..... > > then it seems obvious that the disparity of beliefs we > > have now regarding that matter is the result. > > The Bible tells us all we need to know about water baptism. DAVEH:� Then how do you explain the disparity of beliefs?� The RCC seem to think baptism is pretty necessary, as do the CofC and who knows what other denominations.� Seems to me there is some confusion and stumbling over what the Bible says about baptism. > The Scriptures > lead us to the Holy Spirit who gives us further truth and revelation on the > matter. > �There is no reason for any sincere and faithful follower of Christ > not to understand the truth about baptism, and about its relationship to > children. DAVEH:� I guess there are a lot of Christians who might disagree with you on that.� But then you would probably say that those who disagree with you, aren't Christian.� See my point......? > DaveH wrote: > >>> IOW, it is not the things that are left IN the > >>> Bible that are the problem. > > David Miller wrote: > >> Is it or is it not the alledged altered Bible that brings > >> people under Satan's power, > > DAVEH: > > I don't read it that way at all. The problem is > > the lack of information. > > A lack of information does not lead anyone anywhere.� Are you led to > something by what I don't say? DAVEH:� IF I start assuming you said something that you didn't (as Glenn has done to me), then I would be led to a misunderstanding at best, and an outright untruth at the worst.� Yes DavidM.......a "lack of information" has caused many faulty conclusions and actions.� I'm surprised you would even make that statement. > �Of course not.� You are led to ideas by what > I do say, not by what I don't say. DAVEH:� Wishful thinking.� Perhaps I personally don't make that error (I hope), but I think it is a pretty common problem when people are left to their own thinking. > �The only possible meaning here is that > the Bible in its present form is misleading people and bringing them under > the power of Satan.� You can certainly alledge that this is because somebody > removed important parts of it, but you must agree that it is the Bible, not > the removed parts, which is supposedly leading people in a way such that > they are brought under Satan's power. DAVEH:� You could not be more wrong. > I think the reason you don't read the passage for what it says is because > you feel compelled to make it truth even when it is not.� You approach it > with the preconceived notion that it is God's Word, so you do whatever it > takes to make it work.� The passage blatantly accuses Scripture of being > altered to the point of being used to bring an exceedingly great many people > under Satan's power. DAVEH:� I respectfully disagree. > In contrast, Jesus said, > > "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one > tittle shall in no wise pass from the law..."� (Mat 5:18) DAVEH:� Which IMHO is distinctly different than the Bible we have now.�� The Bible has been with us for a specific time, but the law is eternal. > DaveH wrote: > > As I explained in the baptism of children example above, > > that the Bible does not clarify that particular doctrine does > > not mean it's God's fault. > > I understand that you do not put blame upon God for the "altered Bible." > However, your sage, Joseph Smith, said that this Bible brings people under > the power of Satan. DAVEH:� This is nonsense, DavidM.� Now you are quoting GLENN's assumed quote of Blaine......... ************ Glenn to DaveL - I have to stand by what I say in the subject line.� BLAINE SAYS THE BIBLE IS SOMETHING THAT BRINGS PEOPLE UNDER THE POWER OF SATAN (1 Nephi 13:29-30).� AND HE USES 1 NEPHI TO BACK IT UP!!! ************ .........and attributing it to JS!!!� Do you remember when I challenged Glenn to post Blaine's comment of such, he couldn't do it because he doesn't save his posts.� Well....now the shoe is on your foot, DavidM.� Where did JS make that...... "Bible brings people under the power of Satan" ........comment???� Why do you and Glenn insist on putting words into other peoples' mouths? > I think he was wrong.� He was only setting the stage so > he could sell his own "Word of God." > > DaveH wrote: > > But rather, it is the fault of men who may have > > removed such material. > > Or ADDED such material... > > DaveH wrote: > > That is why there a couple of books of the Bible that warn > > not to add/remove things that they had written. It must have > > been a foreseen possibility, or the Lord would not have felt > > it necessary to add those warnings. > > Of course it is a possibility.� The New International Version has parts > missing that the King James Version includes. DAVEH:� Oooops......be careful or you too will agitate Brother Glenn!� <VBG> > We've already discussed these > things.� Nevertheless, saying that parts are missing and saying that because > of those missing parts the Bible brings an exceedingly great number of > people under the power of Satan are grossly different things.� I would never > say that the NIV brings an exceedingly great many under Satan's power. DAVEH:� Nor did I.� To repeat, it isn't the Bible (NIV or any other version) that is the problem when parts are removed.� It is the removed parts themselves which are the problem.� Once they are gone, how can one know what the Lord revealed there.� (And no....we aren't talking about a few simple verses of the NIV that are included in other versions.) > �I have no problem with the idea that the Bible does not contain all things > spoken by God to men.� What I have a problem with is saying that the Bible > is so corrupted that it brings people under the power of Satan.� If the > Bible brings people under the power of Satan, DAVEH:� You continue to make that allegation.� I repeat....that is not what was said. > then I don't want anyone > reading it.� I would not preach as I do on college campuses that the > students need to read the Bible.� If that passage of Nephi were written in > the Bible itself, I would no longer consider the Bible as Holy Scripture. DAVEH:�� You are saying that if part of the Word of God is missing, you would reject the remaining part of the Word of God???� That does seem a bit odd that you would say such, DavidM......especially when you just said...... " I have no problem with the idea that the Bible does not contain all things spoken by God to men." � > What you seem to be overlooking is that the Bible warns against ADDING to > the Bible, DAVEH:� As you have previously said to other TTers who made that assumption, those warnings were not about the Bible as a whole, but to specific books (Duet & Rev) that are included in the Bible.� Now you are misusing those passages to put a spin on your biases against JS. > just as it warns about taking things away from it.� Joseph Smith > added to the Bible, and some of what he added is very bad. DAVEH:� Example.....??? > DaveH wrote: > > He could easily have just prevented such from happening > > and not even bothered with the warnings. The only reason > > to give the warning is because of the possibility that it would > > happen. Do you see the logic of that? > > Yes, I understand your logic on this. DAVEH:� Whew!� Now, can you explain it to Glenn!!!�� <VBG> > �I have no problem with your > perspective that there is the possibility that people might try to add or > remove things from the Bible.� However, this does not mean that God cannot > still preserve his Word for future generations despite the actions of evil > men. DAVEH:� Agreed.� The question then becomes, "how can the Lord do an end run around evil men?"� Seldom does he act in ways that we would expect.�� IOW.....would he force men against their free will to not make those additions/subtractions? > �He makes it clear to those of us who have his Holy Spirit that those > who try to remove parts from the Bible (like the Samaritans) are wrong, and > He likewise makes it clear to those of us who have his Holy Spirit that > those who try to add to the Bible (like Mohammed and Joseph Smith) DAVEH:� Again......example, please? > are > wrong.� In the midst of it all, the Word of God is still preserved and men > continue to press into the Kingdom of God because of it. DAVEH:� Have you ever considered that perhaps the Word of God is still preserved in a pottery jar in Israel, and has yet to be found? ************** ���� At this point, I'm going to end this segment to make sure it will fit under the 50 kb requirement.� Hopefully, I'll soon get to the remainder. > � -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. � ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
