michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: No, most Biblical passages don't refer to the physical state of Jesus' Father. There are just passages that explain that Jesus has a physical (flesh and bone) body, and that he is like his Father.Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: Do Protestants use the term "exalted" in relation to God? If so, how do you understand it?DAVEH: It doesn't. What it suggests is that Jesus' Father was not a nebulous spirit without form or body. Let me ask you a question, Michael.....do you believe Jesus' Father was exalted being at the time Jesus spoke this, or do you believe he was (is) a spirit without a body or form?
".......he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;......" Jn 14:9 Where in this verse does it say that The Father is an exalted man?Michael D: you have to explain to me what you mean by exalted before I can answer this.
From my LDS perspective, exaltation infers a lot. To simplify it though, it refers to those resurrected people who reach the highest kingdom (Celestial) of heaven.
It is my understanding that most Protestants don't believe our Heavenly Father possesses a physical body---either exalted or not. (And I'll ask you again.....is that the way you believe, Michael?) I quoted the verses to show that the Bible infers that our Heavenly does possess a body in a human form and is not simply an undefined spiritual cloud or whatever. Hansen, I am afraid that your logic is failing again here. OK, you admit that it does not say that the Father has an exalted physical body (as you state below), but you don't show where in those passages it says that He has any kind of physical body. Can you show me one place where it says He does?
DAVEH: No, I don't agree. I have based my beliefs on material found both in and outside the Bible. In my answers to you, I've tried to restrict my comments to the Bible as a courtesy to you. That I don't Biblically substantiate my believes to your satisfaction does not necessarily mean my beliefs are in error.DAVEH: I've tried to restrict my discussions with other TTers to Biblical references. My understanding of the nature of Go d goes beyond the Bible and includes the LDS perspective. O.k., but when you quote Bible and read things into it that it does not say and then use those references as proof, then your argument(s) break down. Am I not right?
DAVEH: I agree. If you wish to maintain a conversation, then it would be nice if you contribute to it with a few answers to my questions. If you want to interrogate me, then I suspect you will continue avoiding my questions.Now Michael, I've been trying to answer your questions but you seem to be neglecting mine. . Do you think our Heavenly Father is exalted??? Dave H, I think this is a very regrettable statement.
DAVEH: I'm not asking you to "answer in the dark" any more than you are expecting me to do so. I'd just be happy if you'd explain what you understand some things to mean......like "exalted". That way I'll have a better feel for if we are communicating well.I felt I needed to understand your terminology before running off to give an answer in the dark.
DAVEH: It seems that way to me, Michael. If you aren't ignoring my questions, then how do you define "exalted"?It's not as though I just ignored it, did I Hansen?
DAVEH: Agreed......so why not offer your definitions while you ask mine?As you would have seen, I asked a folow-up question in myprevious post. Once I understand what you mean, I will give you a response... As Glenn has pointed out, conflicting terminology on TT is often an issue.
DAVEH: Yes, many have speculated about it. But that does not necessarily mean it ain't true...............not just your presumption... I admit that my jumping to the conclusion that our Father's physical body was (is) exalted as opposed to just an ordinary body was a presumption on my part. For me, it is a no brainer. Really Hansen? It seems your whole belief here is based on presumption, and not scriptural logic. I beg to differ.Our Heavenly Father is not just an ordinary person, but he is exalted. He is the Father of his Son, who (Jesus) progressed from a spirit being to a "normal" physical being (of flesh and blood) and then to an exalted resurrected physical being (of flesh and bone). Similar to a man's progress from an embryo to an infant, to a child, to an adolescent, to an adult similar to his parents, I believe Jesus progressed in like manner. Jesus' ultimate destiny is/was to become as his Father----an exalted being.
DAVEH: As I said before, though some may have speculated, I don't know of any definitive Scripture that discusses it. Then, at best this is LDS speculation, agreed?DAVEH: As I said above, my suggesting that our Father is an "exalted man" was a presumptuous jump in my logic. But this is what LDSers have promoted on TT for a long time. Earlier in this discussion, you affirmed it, but didn't give an answer for how He became a man. Do you have an answer for that one?
DAVEH: Many things can be "believed/defended as truth" not because they are proven, but rather because the evidence points in that direction.And should not be believed/defended as truth.
DAVEH: Not if those who perceive the "big problem" have misunderstood what was "revealed".Yet it seems universally held as truth (though you said God can give further revelations of His nature in the future, right). It seems to me that LDS is claiming something to be truth about God that it has no proof of, but is assuming that God will reveal that about Himself sometime in the future, th us confirming LDS speculation. Of course, the big problem with this is that If God 'reveals' or has revealed something contrary to LDS teaching on this matter, then there is a big problem, isn't there?
DAVEH: Correct. It merely points to the truth, doesn't it Michael.DAVEH: Paul alluded??? to it when he wrote to the Phillipians (2:5-6).......The point I was trying to make is that Jesus' (and our) Father is a being with a physical body that houses a spirit And Where in the scripture does it specify this?"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Alluded is not proof is it, Hansen?
DAVEH: So how do you interpret it, Michael?Being in the form of God does not specify a spirit in a physical body. Therefore, you are dealing with imposing an interpretation on that phrase.
DAVEH: No......I don't "see that", Michael. Pile up the evidence, and you end up with a conviction.Again I say, you can't use allusions, presumptions etc, as proof for anything. I would reiterate, that your logic is faulty, as you previously admitted. Can't you see that?
DAVEH: Let me ask you, Michael......Do you believe Jesus is the SON OF MAN??? A simple yes or no will suffice. (If you choose to ignore the question, then may I assume you would answer "yes", because the Bible says such?)All I am trying to do is get from you the solid support you have for the Father being a man, and having a 'physical' body, which you have confidently asserted...
--DAVEH: I doubt that my definition will satisfy you, so please offer your own so that I will understand how you believe God is exalted.....if you do.That he is exalted is a 'given', IMO.I'm still curious about your thoughts on this, Michael. Do you believe Our Heavenly Father was exalted at the time Jesus lived? How about now....Do you believe he is an exalted physical being now? I will answer, but I need to understand what you mean by exalted.
Sorry for more questions Hansen, but I am really trying to understand how you use these terms so I can answer ... What do you mean by 'physical' body...
and it is obvioius that that can never be what is alluded to in that verse, so that theory breaks down. It's not the exalted man proposition!!! Again, at best it's a non-exalted man....to follow your thinking.
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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