Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: Yes, Michael.....I've been a bit on the busy side lately, so it has been nice seeing that Marlin, Izzy, Laura & Glenn have been keeping TTers from falling asleep in my absence!Michael D: Dave H, I know you must be busy,
but I would be interested in knowing your answer to the question below, i.e. Jesus' statement seems to defy any claim of the exalted man-god theory being true. What say you?DAVEH: I guess I'm not quite sure what your point is, Michael. And.....just what is the "question below" you to which you are referring?IMHO, Jesus resembled his Father even prior to his birth on earth.....IOW, while he was God of the OT in spirit form. Clothing that spirit in a physical body did not detract from that resemblance even before his exaltation after his resurrection.
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: I did. Furthermore, there are several Biblical comments that infer his Father is an exalted man......Can you address the above for me...".......he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;......" Jn 14:9 Where in this verse does it say that The Father is an exalted man?
DAVEH: It doesn't. What it suggests is that Jesus' Father was not a nebulous spirit without form or body. Let me ask you a question, Michael.....do you believe Jesus' Father was exalted being at the time Jesus spoke this, or do you believe he was (is) a spirit without a body or form?
Michael D: you have to explain to me what you mean by exalted before I can answer this.
It is my understanding that most Protestants don't believe our Heavenly Father possesses a physical body---either exalted or not. (And I'll ask you again.....is that the way you believe, Michael?) I quoted the verses to show that the Bible infers that our Heavenly does possess a body in a human form and is not simply an undefined spiritual cloud or whatever. Hansen, I am afraid that your logic is failing again here. OK, you admit that it does not say that the Father has an exalted physical body (as you state below), but you don't show where in those passages it says that He has any kind of physical body. Can you show me one place where it says He does? ...not just your presumption... I admit that my jumping to the conclusion that our Father's physical body was (is) exalted as opposed to just an ordinary body was a presumption on my part. For me, it is a no brainer. Really Hansen? It seems your whole belief here is based on presumption, and not scriptural logic. I beg to differ.
Our Heavenly Father is not just an ordinary person, but he is exalted. He is the Father of his Son, who (Jesus) progressed from a spirit being to a "normal" physical being (of flesh and blood) and then to an exalted resurrected physical being (of flesh and bone). Similar to a man's progress from an embryo to an infant, to a child, to an adolescent, to an adult similar to his parents, I believe Jesus progressed in like manner. Jesus' ultimate destiny is/was to become as his Father----an exalted being.
DAVEH: Sure.DAVEH: No Michael, I don't see it that way at all. Nor do I understand why you see it that way. Paul wrote this AFTER Jesus had become exalted. Furthermore, to quote vs 3....... Hold your horses there Dave H. , Forget hebrews for a second. When Jesus said as you quoted sabove ...he who has seen Me has seen the Father..., He was not yet exalted, can we agree on that?.......and......"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and ......." Heb 1:3
The only thing that these verses can suggest in this regard is that God is a man, and that a non-exalted one, for these verses refer to Jesus in His pre/non-exalted state. He was only exalted after He ascended on high. Therefore if we are to make this kind of association this LDS theory breaks completely down... Can you see that?
I think it is very plain... Now, you use this verse to say That the Father is an exalted man,DAVEH: As I said above, my suggesting that our Father is an "exalted man" was a presumptuous jump in my logic. But this is what LDSers have promoted on TT for a long time. Earlier in this discussion, you affirmed it, but didn't give an answer for how He became a man. Do you have an answer for that one?
The point I was trying to make is that Jesus' (and our) Father is a being with a physical body that houses a spirit And Where in the scripture does it specify this? That he is exalted is a 'given', IMO.
I'm still curious about your thoughts on this, Michael. Do you believe Our Heavenly Father was exalted at the time Jesus lived? How about now....Do you believe he is an exalted physical being now? I will answer, but I need to understand what you mean by exalted.
and it is obvioius that that can never be what is alluded to in that verse, so that theory breaks down. It's not the exalted man proposition!!! Again, at best it's a non-exalted man....to follow your thinking.
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