� David Miller wrote:
> DAVEH: > > I've always imagined Jesus to be like that.� There > > were times when he wasn't so polite, as in the Temple > > chastising the money changers.� However, I'm not Jesus. > > Nor do I feel compelled (yet) to exercise righteous > > indignation.� I can't even imagine condemning one of > > my Brothers or Sisters to hell, regardless of their > > faults.� I'll leave that to the Lord.� In the meantime, > > I have enough on my plate just learning to forgive those > > who wrong me. > > What you describe here is an effect of the conscience being under the > guilt of sin.� This problem is not specific to Mormonism, but also in > Protestantism.� When the Spirit of God cleanses you on the inside, only > then can you become bold as a lion. DAVEH:� Until then, I prefer to be meek as a lamb, lest the Lord think I'm arrogant and hypocritical. > DAVEH: > > It seems to me that your street preaching background > > makes you comfortable in the confrontational environment. > > I'm just the opposite.� I never understood why some folks > > like to practice 'get in your face' religion.� There must > > be some kind of thrill or satisfaction in wielding the > > sword of God that causes SPers to enjoy doing battle with > > the forces of evil. > > I never was involved in street preaching until almost ten years ago.� I > don't think it is my street preaching background that makes me > comfortable, but rather a number of other factors.� One is that I have > appreciated those in my life who have spoken directly to me and candidly > to me.� I like sharp rebuke toward me as an individual better than > flattering words. DAVEH:� Ahhhhhh......I see I've been using the wrong approach to you, eh DavidM!��� LOL > �I would much rather someone tell me to my face what a > dirty rotten scoundrel I am DAVEH:� Hmmmmm......yeah......I've been wanting to do that for a long time.....�� ROTFLOL > and why than be sweet to my face but inside > think I'm the worse man who he ever met. DAVEH:� Hey DavidM.....if you think like that, you'd better make an appointment to see Brother Glenn's shrink!� (I think he has had to start going to one, ever since the Mormon missionaries terrified him to the point of hiding behind his door when they were pounding on it to try to convert him!)�� :-) ��� Do you always go around thinking the worst of folks?� Don't you think some people with smiles on their faces just may be reflecting that which is inside?� (And yes, I know I've spun the nature of your comment a bit.) > Another factor involved in this > is simply that my conscience prods me to do something when I see > injustice.� This seems to be the logical next step once my personal > house is in order.� God didn't clean me up simply for me to enjoy it, > but he expects me to bear fruit and stand up for righteousness in a > perverse world. > > I can assure you that I get no personal satisfaction out of wielding the > sword of God in this way. DAVEH:� You may not (nor have I have seen that trait in your posts), but I suspect it may have been a factor in other TT posts. > �I am much more like Jonah.� When I think God > wants me to go do something, I start looking for a boat to take me the > other way.� It is very uncomfortable for me to put myself out there in > front of people and make a foolish spectacle of myself.� It is very > humbling.� Nevertheless, we must do that which God calls us to do. DAVEH:� I prefer to wait until God calls.� I've often wondered how many people don't wait for that call, but assume they are doing what God wants without receiving the call to do so.� (Could that not explain Mt 7:22-23?) > �A stewardship is placed upon me which I must fulfill. > > David Miller wrote: > >> but if you are wanting to understand why some people are > >> offended by you, I think it does lie in this polished > >> veneer that causes them to misjudge you at first. > > DAVEH: > > That seems like their problem, rather than mine. > > Oh, I surely agree that they have a problem here, DAVEH:� Doesn't this whole oxymoronic situation strike you as peculiar?� Because of my LDS background, I've tried my best not to offend folks in TT.....yet that is exactly what has happened.� I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that anything to do with Mormonism biases some people. > but I don't think it > is exclusively a problem on one side or the other.� When we know that > there is a communication problem, we should try to do what we can to > better the situation, even if we are not at fault. DAVEH:� When you do it, you are being sensitive.� When a Mormon does it.....he is 'harping'.� (I read your whole post before replying!) > �This is just the > nature of being sensitive to those who hear us.� Even Jesus sometimes > said nothing at all because of his audience. DAVEH:� Perhaps that is my error......trying to answer too many questions. > DAVEH: > > Of all people, I thought you understood me to the core. > > I think I do understand you pretty well. DAVEH:� Then, were you shocked to hear me state (several times) that I am not in TT to learn truth? > �I'm just trying to explain > what I have observed in your interaction with others primarily, DAVEH:� And I do thank you for that. > but also > with a few examples where even I was met with unexpected reactions. > This is just part of human communication. > > DaveH wrote: > > I guess I just don't understand why I am so hard to read. > > I've made no secret of my LDS biases and proclivities. > > I don't understand what it is I say or do that makes other > > Tters misunderstand my existence in TT. > > Well, when you harp DAVEH:� I'm not sure why, but when you use that word several times it strikes me as a negative conotation.....did you mean it that way? > on the fact that you are hear to learn what > Protestants believe, > to the new person who has not been on TruthTalk, > that sounds like you are new and have never talked with a Protestant > before. DAVEH:� I thought I was doing that so that nobody would have any misconceptions as to why I'm here.� I can understand a newbie making that assumption and readily admit my biases so as not to lead them on, yet despite my repeatedly expressing my intentions (which leads you to say that I am harping), even old timers like Izzy, or moderately short timers like Perry who I have previously 'harped' at continue to misunderstand my intentions.� What (or how) can I do to make my intentions any clearer?� If I repeat myself numerous times, I'm 'harping'.� If I don't explain my intentions, then will I be accused of being sneaky and hiding something? > �Think about me right now going to a Mormon list and saying, > "I'm here foremost to learn what Mormons believe."� Well, I could not do > that.� It would be disingenuous of me. DAVEH:� WHAT!?!?!?!�� Nonsense.� I belong to an LDS book forum where the foremost poster is a non-LDS guy who collects LDS books.� When I first found out he was non-LDS, I was very surprised, as he sounds more LDS than many of the others on the list.� (There are some 'rebels' there too!)� Yet I had no desire to think he was anything other than he claimed.� I've never asked him specifics as to why he doesn't join the Church, but I suspect he'd tell me whatever I asked....that's just his nature from the posts I've seen.� I've seen not a single post question his motives or his participation on the list.� Everybody treats him with the same respect he treats everybody else. ��� If you want to see for yourself, try it for awhile....... [EMAIL PROTECTED] .........and ask him some questions about how he is treated there.�� His name is Jeff Needle.� From my experience in M-L, nobody is particularly bothered that an 'outsider' participates and is not interested in believing as we do.� We welcome anybody to the list who is respectful and courteous. > I know a lot about what Mormons > believe.� Technically, it would be true that I would learn more about > what Mormons believe, but for me to say that, well, I know that there > would be Mormons who think I am a Protestant searching for something > more, and they would be inclined to convert me to their religion.� Do > you see what I mean? DAVEH:� No.� I think you are seeing this from a Protestant's perspective.� Have you ever been to an LDS meeting?� If so, did they try to drag you to the baptismal font?� Sure....we are elated when somebody wants to come into the fold, but we don't drag them screaming and kicking.� (Though one of these days I'm tempted to try it with Brother Glenn!)�� Do you remember Carrol's experience when he attended an LDS meeting?� I don't recall him saying anything derogatory in this respect.� We welcome anybody who courteous and respectful.� The same goes for the street north of the SLC Temple.� We aren't trying to prevent folks from enjoying the atmosphere there, but on the other hand we want to restrict rogues from detracting from the spirituality there. ��� Maybe there is a major difference between the way LDS folks practice their religion, and Protestants practice theirs.� We try not to see an adversarial relationship between men and differing theologies.� We view all men as being spiritual brothers who have differing paths in their journey of eternal progression.� For someone to force another to walk a specific path detracts from the free agency aspect of the plan of salvation.� So I don't think it is of benefit to twist somebody's arm to make them believe like we do.� IMO, it is better to let them come to that conclusion on their own. ��� Hmmmmmm....I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching!�� Sometimes I just prattle on......���� :-) > DaveH wrote: > > Apparently some may think that there is > > no room in TT for any opinions/believes > > other than their own. > > That's true, and that has contributed to the problem.� It is difficult > for many Christians to imagine that a Christian would setup a list that > was not a "Christian list" that forbade any speech that was outside of > Christ.� Nevertheless, this is not the only thing that has hindered > communication between you and others.� I think your harping on being > here to learn what Protestants believe has misled many as well. DAVEH:� OK DavidM......What do you suggest I say so that I don't mislead them the next time somebody asks? > DaveH wrote: > > I suppose my comfort could cause the discomfort > > of others.� I'll have to ponder that. > > Yes, this is very true! DAVEH:� To me, that is unfathomable!� But as I think about it, I've seen it elsewhere in different situations.� Does it ever happen to you, when you are ministering to the disadvantaged?� Are they uncomfortable that you have your act together, and they don't? > �I have received private emails from people > telling me that something is spiritually wrong if a Mormon feel > comfortable to be on the list. DAVEH:� That amazes me.� Do you understand that effect, and can you easily explain it? > �They view this as something faulty. > Interestingly, you seem to be the only Mormon that sticks around DAVEH:� I'm not sure I'd quite agree with you on that.� I suspect Jeff will return next year.�� I suspect the ones who've left have a lower tolerance for pain.� There reaches a point when one gets tired of repeating himself to those who refuse to listen or accept what is said.� When I reach that point I simply say, "I respectfully disagree" and move on. > about > like I'm the only Street Preacher who sticks around. LOL.� Nevertheless, > I do think you are onto something here with the idea that your comfort > here is discomforting to others.� Maybe some others on the list would > like to comment on this idea. > > DAVEH: > > If somebody were to attack your belief/faith in Jesus, > > you evidently would welcome it.� I'm the opposite.� I > > don't have a lot of time to chase such frivolous pursuits > > (from my perspective). > > Yes, we are different in this regard.� I have sometimes found my ideas > adjusted or changed because of exercises like this.� Sometimes I have > gotten out of cultish doctrine DAVEH:� Protestant doctrine? > because of it.� When I have been on the > right side, my faith is strengthened because I see more evidence of it > being true.� Yes, my faith is much more bolstered by people disagreeing > with my faith than by those who express agreement with it. DAVEH:�� From my LDS perspective, that is odd.� I think the LDS community buoys itself by being cohesive and self supporting.� We think in terms of being one big family whose faith is strengthened by the sum of the parts.� Each member is an important part of the functioning whole.� To us, disagreements detract from our faith rather than promote it.� Together we can accomplish a lot.� Individually, we will burn out.� At least that's the way I see it.� But.....Now you've got me on the soapbox again...... > DaveH wrote: > > Because of my faith in the Lord, I have no interest > > in listening to a Muslim try to convert me away from > > my beliefs. > > And I would very much desire to engage a Muslim in such conversation. > The problem is that almost all of them have the same attitude as you do > toward such a conversation, so getting into serious conversation with a > Muslim in this way is rare.� I think they would rather strap a suicide > bomb on one of their kids to make their point. DAVEH:� Yeah......I think that is the sad reality..... > DAVEH: > > I'm curious.....how did those other LDS folks behave? > > Were they courteous and polite in their disagreements > > with you?� Maybe the Church has that effect on it's > > adherents......� I'm sure there are rowdy Mormons, but > > I don't see them. > > I've never met a rowdy Mormon. DAVEH:�� Whew.....I'm glad to hear that!� I know they are out there, but fortunately they aren't all that common. > �I've seen them get exuberant when they > walked away after a talk, obviously excited about all the "good points" > some of them made in the conversation, but in face to face exchange, > they are polite to a fault (my personal perspective). DAVEH:� Would anything less than that be considered 'Christian behavior'? > �I am convinced > that the church has taught them to act this way. DAVEH:� I've never seen anything overtly taught that way by the Church.� It is the fruit of what the Church teaches that leads to that behavior.� If you go to an LDS meeting, you will probably be surprised at how noisy they are.� Kids are included in the worship service, and tend to be rambunctious throughout the meeting.�� Yet, there is a certain type of reverence that is encouraged by the Church that tempers individuals as they mature to be obedient and respectful to others.� When you typically hear of a newsworthy story about a Mormon dissident, it is usually somebody who doesn't fit into that mold.� To make 'irreverence' public is just not inbred to most LDS folks.� It is so contrary to the nature of how we are think.� Hmmmmm.....I don't quite know where I'm going with this, DavidM....I guess I'm just trying to explain why we (or perhaps me) are the way we are.� To summarize, most of us prefer to avoid confrontation to maintain that reverence that pervades our realm. > �Sometimes when I have > tried to lead into serious discussion, something that centers on > Scripture, the response comes back, "well, if you are not open to > hearing us, no amount of talking about the Bible will change anything. > God and the Holy Spirit has to show it to you.� We don't want to talk > with you anymore.� If God doesn't show it to you, you won't be able to > see it."� They were very polite, but they shunned anything that remotely > looked like a challenge to their belief system.� I thought you might be > a little different, but deep down, there is still that root of "I'm > going to believe in Mormonism because I choose to believe in Mormonism, > and I don't care about any evidence that might show me that this would > be a wrong decision on my part." DAVEH:� Yes......I think that is not far from the way most LDS (including me) folks feel. > DAVEH: > > you must have a very small library.....and it > > sounds like it may be predominantly pro-Mormon! > > I've got far more anti-Mormon books than you have > > pro-Mormon!!! > > Yes, it is small.� I probably have about 1200 physical books, and about > that many more on electronic media like CD-ROM.� The Mormon aspect is > only about 24 books, with more than half definitely pro-Mormon, many > that try to be objective historical accounts, and a few that are > decidedly contrary to Mormonism. DAVEH:� LOL......I've got about 1200 LDS books, and about 2 dozen Protestant books!�� (But I bet I've got more motorcycle books than you!)�� :-) > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... 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