Hi Judy. I was thinking to take a break from all the activity on TruthTalk today, but I can't help myself. I have to respond to some of what you have written. I hope things do slow down a little on TruthTalk because I can't keep up with it all. I do have some work to do around here. :-) If you see me slowing down, please don't think I'm not interested or not reading. I am. I believe you have some good things to share, but I also think there are some good things you need to hear. :-)
I'm going to respond to some of your comments to Ruben. Ruben can take care of himself, but there are some issues that a third person viewpoint might be more fitting so that Ruben is not put into a position of defending himself. He can take care of the Biblical stuff, but I'm just wanting to try and help you understand better the attitude and perspective I have observed in Ruben from working with him. By the way, have you visited the photo gallery at www.InnGlory.org? I have put pictures there and Ruben is on many of them. Note that the pictures barely grasp what is done in preaching these events, and it is a very sacrificial thing to take time to photograph these things. When I am photographing things, I am not preaching. Therefore, please make use of some of these pictures so that my time out for preaching might be somewhat helpful for those who do not go to the streets. In particular, now that I'm thinking about it, look at the pictures from the Gasparilla parade. I want to give you a little commentary on that. Note the masses of people and the big banners in there. Now I use to completely skip these events. I use to think it impossible to do anything at these events because people were so given into their whoredoms. We also have an event in Tampa called Guavaween which coincides with Halloween. It centers itself in Ybor City, one of my preaching localities. I would preach there religiously every Friday night at the same spot, like having a church meeting out on the street. People had become very accustomed to me being there, such that the local MTV type programming which tried to get more young people out to party by showing all the drinking and dancing girls in the bars would show me preaching on their program. I guess they were trying to say, "not only can you come out here and find lots of hot girls and guys, but take a break for some intellectual and spiritual consideration too!" The host of the program would be shown in the crowd surrounding me, nodding his head and making facial gestures that he found what I was saying very interesting. Anyway, the reason I went into this was to say that when Guavaween hit, that would be my night off. I think a lot of this was because I was preaching alone, but also because I did not know how to approach massive crowds. My kind of street preaching never involved banners. I would dress in a suit and stand on a planter with my Bible in hand and lift up my voice. When the partying becomes thick with people dressed up for Halloween, I just could not see myself being very effective with this approach, so I prayed about it asking the Lord for the night off, and he gave it to me most readily. When I met Ruben, I heard about "event preaching." He and Bible Jim Webber would use banners. So, I started going with Ruben and I learned event preaching. Now I had always skipped Gasparilla like I skipped Guavaween. But Ruben came to town all the way from California, and so I tagged along with Ruben and I learned how preaching these events is done. I know you are against "methods," but this idea of banners I found to be VERY effective for parades like Gasparilla. I now have four banners in my preacher's toolbox. Now Gasparilla is not just any parade. It is associated with a pirate spirit that plagues Tampa and intermingles with the mafia spirit in Tampa. They celebrate a pirate named Gaspar in this parade. Well, what a testimony! This preaching team that Ruben brought to town really made an impact. People would be screaming like maniacs wanting beads and coins to be thrown to them from the parade, and here comes the banners with the Ruben and others lifting up the Lord with Truth Horns, telling them to repent of sin and believe upon Jesus Christ. People suddenly saw what spirit they were caught up in. It was like a jolt, looking up and suddenly being shocked to see not pirates, but men of God bringing a message of repentance. The contrast between light and darkness was glaring. The pictures cannot convey the immensity of the crowds nor their reaction and the effect of this witness, but I hope the pictures help just a little. Judy wrote: > **I don't see Paul and/or the other apostles rebuking > and testifying against the world per se Ruben.� In fact > both Peter and Paul begged men not to fall down and > worship them. They were being treated as gods because > of God's power in their lives. LOL. Judy! Wake up. Right after they tried to worship them, then they stoned Paul to the point that they drug him out of town considering him dead (Acts 14 for those who need the text). He may have in fact died, as many believe that he had an out of body experience at this time, but was resurrected by the Lord. I agree with you that miraculous healings attended them and their preaching, and I think you make an excellent point here. Please don't think I want to short change that, and I think that point needs to be heard by all of us. But let's not be too myopic on that one point. Notice other things too. Notice the fickle nature of people, ready to worship at one point, then stoning Paul either to death or unconsciousness. Most of all, notice that all this took place not in church, nor even in the synagogue of the Jews, but it all took place out in public at a massive parade taking place at the gates of the city, at the shrine of Jupiter. And what did Paul and Barnabas do? They ran into the midst of this wicked parade, tore their clothes, and preached to them. Do you think their message was one of love and acceptance? They were REBUKING THEM for their madness of doing sacrifice. He UPSET THEIR PARTY. Don't you see that? This is why they stoned Paul. Sure, they wanted to worship Paul for the miracle that he did to the crippled man, but when Paul PREACHED TO THEM, then they wanted to KILL HIM. And the fact that all this took place out in public at the temple of Jupiter at a party of the wicked tells us that Paul and Barnabas were not shy to venture out of the church and into the public arena. If you have not noticed these points before and you see that I am speaking truth and remaining true to the text, please consider that your glasses with which you are reading the Bible are a little tinted, causing you to filter out some important information. It is very obvious to those of us who have been used in the public arena to proclaim Christ, but for some reason it seems you do not see these glaring facts. You see the miracle of healing sure enough, and I suspect some may not notice that too much in the text and need to hear your voice about it, but you also need to see the venue and the message that was carried here, and it was not a message that the folks there wanted to hear. These men clearly GOT IN THEIR FACES and were confrontational with their message, and it brought upon them persecution. Ruben wrote: >> The Book of Acts is not about a few guys passing out >> tracts or stories of them trying to witness to the >> waitress at the local coffee shop and winning over >> family members.� � Judy wrote: > **So you kind of look down on those who don't do > it like you do? No, Judy, Ruben is not like that. He often supplies stacks of tracts for those who do not preach, to witness to those in the crowds. At Mardi Gras two years ago, I remember a woman and a man who never preached, but they passed out tracts and prayed with people. Ruben SUPPORTS THIS. Ruben understands the value of TEAMWORK. That is why he is trying to get you to accept public preaching so that you might be part of the team when he comes to your town. :-) His point is well taken above. We seem to accept readily the idea of passing out tracts and witnessing at the local coffee shop. Therefore, the Bible does not need to give us examples of this. But while we embrace these non-Biblical methods (not to say they are wrong, but only that they are not taught in the Bible), let's not use them as a substitute for the BIBLICAL methods. In other words, let's focus upon BIBLE METHODS and adjunct them with reasonable other methods as the Lord leads. Most of all, let's not reject BIBLICAL METHODS. There are many reasons why the Biblical methods are rejected by modern Christians. The Biblical methods bring persecution. The Biblical methods make us look foolish. The Biblical methods take great sacrifice. Judy wrote: > **Pardon me but did Jesus send the 70 out, > telling them to stay at houses with people > and share the message of His Kingdom with them? They LIVED at these houses because they had no money and no food. Teamwork again. Those who received these street preachers would be blessed by God who could repay. But please don't think these 70 were like Mormon missionaries with "ELDER" tags on their shirts who visit at the home for an hour and then go back to their rented apartment. These guys would live with you. Judy wrote: > **America is not a Christian Nation and there are > laws against making a public disturbance Ruben. > How about Romans 13:1-5, does this also apply to > Street Preachers? For the record, Ruben is known among street preachers as the one who cooperates with government and the police. He is sharply criticized by those who preach out of strife and vainglory as one who compromises with the wicked government. The truth is that Ruben does not compromise, but he has an excellent working relationship with the police. I have heard the police tell Ruben, "we know what you are doing and we need you here. You are important. We thank you for being here." The police work to protect him, just as Romans 13 says. But sometimes there is a wicked cop who gets out of line. Sometimes the police are fickle. I remember preaching once and a cop started protecting me. I had a small crowd of about 30 when he started doing this. He stood right next to me, and when a homosexual started pushing me, he took him aside. There were maybe two or three incidents where he did this, and soon the crowd began to swell, to fifty, a hundred, two hundred, three hundred, even more. I could not believe the size of the crowd, but the Word was going forth and it was exciting. The policeman who had been protecting me suddenly changed his tune. He saw the crowd as a dangerous mob. He tried to stop the preaching because the crowds were too big. He called in about 15 other police officers and they eventually told the crowd to leave and shut me down. My point is that even when you submit unto the police and government, sometimes the pressure on them is such that they take action against us. I also have known merchants to come against the preaching, and their pressure on the police is heavy because they are business people who bring money to the city, and they argue that we are driving away customers (even though the crowds are bigger outside their shops than they have ever seen because of the preaching). Judy wrote: > **The Mormons had a 'real deal' as you call it who > walked the streets in a white robe preaching and > calling�himself a prophet.� He is�in jail right > now for kidnapping Elizabeth Smart. Sure he was > crazy but his methods are the same. His methods were NOT what we are talking about. He is one of those who did NOT preach out in pubic. Rather, he took the relatively passive approach of passing out literature. When the police investigated him, it was in the same way that they investigate homeless guys on the street because that is what he was. Ruben wrote: > "Knowing therefore THE TERROR of the Lord, > WE PERSUADE MEN"� (2Co.5:11) Judy wrote: > **This is what I have been�saying - persuading men > is one thing, rebuking and condemning them is > something else again. Ruben wrote: > That is a quotation, if you have a problem with that > you must take it up With the Holy Spirit that inspired > Paul to write that and other verses.� Judy wrote: > **I did this Ruben and I don't believe that the Holy > Spirit inspired it the way you present it.� Paul and > the other apostles understood the 'terror' of the > Lord but the men out there who they were persuading > were blinded by the god of this world and ignorant - > which is why they need to be persuaded into the Kingdom > rather than abused and intimidated. It is not ABUSE and INTIMIDATION to preach Christ in public. I have been accused of this many times, but it is a false accusation. Freedom of speech is the idea that we should be free to express our views in public places. Our culture has lost an appreciation for free speech, and this is why they call it abuse and intimidation. They want to be free to sin without anyone saying it is wrong. I can understand how they might view preaching as abuse and intimidation, but it is not if we understand that public areas are fair game for free speech activities, even if that public area is right outside of a Mormon Temple. Please notice the context of this passage that Ruben quotes. It says nothing along the lines of "ignorance" in the way that you are using it, as if they are excused by ignorance to continue sinning without anyone telling them otherwise. The passage about them being ignorant is for the past. Now they are no longer ignorant because the message has been preached to them. Now they must make a choice to repent or suffer the rejection of God. That is the message brought to them, and as we near closer and closer to the end time, this type of Elijah message will become more prevalent. The persecution also will become more prevalent. God will have his testimony continue right up to the end of this age. Consider the full context of the passage that Ruben quoted. Notice the parts that I have emphasized. Wherefore WE LABOUR, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, THAT YE MAY HAVE SOMEWHAT TO ANSWER THEM WHICH GLORY IN APPEARANCE, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, THEN WERE ALL DEAD: And that he died for all, that they which live SHOULD NOT HENCEFORTH LIVE UNTO THEMSELVES, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:9-15 KJV) Please carefully read this passage and see the motivations involved of knowing God's terror, knowing the judgment of God that will come, knowing how men are all dead, and knowing that men must stop living for themselves and give their lives to God if they are going to escape the judgment. They persuade men based upon these facts, because they know how terrible it is to fall into the hands of an angry God. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
