Kevin Deegan wrote:
Why do I feel like you guys are not forthcoming with information and maybe even intentional bending of the Truth?Do you expect me to believe that the "General Authorities" have NO AUTHORITY except when they say Thus saith the Lord?
DAVEH: Who said that, Kevin??? I don't think either Blaine nor I suggested or even implied such.
That the "prophet" does not speak for god, but sometimes speculates and gives his Opinion.
DAVEH: Prophets are human too. They are allowed (and I expect them) to have opinions, and make mistakes. If you expect perfection from a religious leader, I've heard the RCC folks lay claim to an infallible pope. As for Mormons......We've never made that claim. (Except perhaps for Blaine.....I think he may be a lot closer to perfection than me!)
What if you disagree with his "Opinion"?
DAVEH: I suppose I could be rebuked, excommunicated or chastised to no end......but, instead I suspect I would be treated a lot better by him than I've been treated here on TT by some. If he is humble, I would hope a prophet would consider my lack of understanding of what he is trying to convey and treat me with respect of one who needs to be educated. The best teachers I've seen do such educating have found that oft times a reproving silence is more meaningful than a verbal tongue lashing.
Care to tell your Bishop you disagree with his opinion?
DAVEH: I've done so more than once. Though not on doctrinal issues. (I suspect you'd be disappointed to find that most bishops---at least the ones I've known---aren't scriptorians.)I have found a lot of detractors claim that anything spoken by a
latter-day prophet is absolutely correct and can be taken as doctrine. I
personally disagree with such a supposition, and don't know any LDS
folks who think differently....though there may be some.You do not know the current "prophet"?
DAVEH: ??? I'm not sure why you asked that, Kevin. Where are you going with this?
Why do you disagree with him?
DAVEH: I disagree with a lot of folks. On some topics, it wouldn't surprise me to find that holds true in the Church as well as in TT.
You have never heard the 14 fundamentals?DAVEH: Nope......but I bet I soon will know about them.When the GAs (General Authorities) say something, it can be considered to be conjecture on their part, guessing, speculationCan we foward this to your Bishop?
DAVEH: LOL......If he weren't a pretty busy guy, I'd copy this to him. I'm really not too worried about what he knows about me. FWIW.....I even invited our Stake President to join me on TT.
He will want to know.
DAVEH: Or so you think....
The prophets "speculate" with your soul?
DAVEH: ??? JOD "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95.Discussing his discourses "I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264Did the "prophet" go through all the trouble of publishing his discourses and not bother to check them?
Did he print and slap together these discourses, without caring whether what is being transmitted to the members overseas was correct?
If there were errors, why are there not any quotes from Brigham, to that effect?
The JOD was approved and overseen by General Authorities and printed in the Church printing office.
WORDS OF PROPHETS ARE NOT JUST THERE OPINIONS, THEY ARE SCRIPTURE
FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHETS
By PRESIDENT Ezra Taft Benson
BYU Devotional Assembly
Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m.
Full speech - http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm
"SIXTH: The Prophet Does Not Have to Say "Thus Saith the Lord" to Give Us Scripture.
DAVEH: I suspect this is what you think I've said that is in disagreement. Contrary to you may be thinking....I agree with what he is saying here. Perhaps you think that everything the LDS leaders say is meant to be understood as revelation from the Lord. I do not believe such, and try to frame their words in the context of what they are saying and to whom they are saying it. Sometimes they will even preface their thoughts with "I think" or "I imagine" "perhaps" which to me would suggest they may be offering an opinion rather than hard core doctrine. You may understand ETB's below quotation of the Lord "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words" to suggest prophets never offer their opinion.....I disagree, and would not worry for a second that any of our prophets would view it the way you apparently do.
Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4.) And speaking of taking counsel from the Prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed." Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture." (JD 13:95.)""ELEVENTH: The Two Groups Who Have The Greatest Difficulty in Following The Prophet Are The Proud Who Are Learned And The Proud Who Are Rich. The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them, otherwise the prophet is just giving his opinion--speaking as a man."The LDS Church manual "Gospel Principles" clearly states that the inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as scripture by Latter-day Saints. "In addition to these 4 books of scripture, the inspired works of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, church publications and instructions to local priesthood leaders." - Gospel Principles, p.51-52"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead" Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363 THROW OUT THE OLD TRUTHS, WE HAVE NEWER TRUTH!
The 1997 Priesthood Manual "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church", contains prolific quotes from many early Mormon publications.
If LDS leaders believe that the Old prophets are unreliable then they need to stop quoting them, and admit that the "prophets" are capable of leading ASTRAY!
“Do you see where this leads? If statements that a Mormon doesn’t want to accept can be brushed off as private opinions without authority, so can other statements. If declarations that make the church look bad are mere opinions, so are statements that make the church look good. If a General Authority said something that the Mormon doesn’t believe and it was just that man’s opinion, then the things that the Mormon does believe are also just someone’s opinion” Robert McKay The Evangel, January/February 1996, pg. 8
The Church and missionaries have no problem quoting this material but when it is quoted in a negative light for the Church they protest. You can not have it both ways. The fact is that the TRUTH changes with every new "prophet" this is the natural outcome of "new revelation" There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY in Mormonism.
If a "detractor" quotes it is to be dismissed, if the church quotes it is to be trusted?Is this your standard for TRUTH?Jeremiah 17:5 “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.”
STOP THINKING AND GET IN LINE WITH THE LEADERS, NO CRITICIZING! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT LUMP IT!
"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the Children of Israel, and he made me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be the mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy" Ward teachers message, June 1945
"Have we not a right to make up our minds in relation to the things recorded in the word of God, and speak about them, whether the living oracles believe our views or not? We have not the right." - Journal of Discourses 7:374-375.
"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism" The Teachings of Spencer W Kimball, 1982
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:David Miller wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
> > I am stating the OFFICIAL General Authority Position.
> > This is the ONLY position. According to LDS prophets
> > they are the only ones allowed to state LDS doctrine.
>
> I would like to hear from DaveH and Blaine about this. Has Kevin been
> giving official General Authority Position?DAVEH: Not in my opinion.
> It seems to me that Glenn
> would quote from the Journal of Discourses like Kevin does, and the
> response was that this was not considered Mormon doctrine.DAVEH: Correct. Material found in the JofD may or may not be official LDS doctrine. The JofD are simply an accumulation of sermons (for the most part....there may be some that were not ever sermons---I'm not sure) preached back in the days (19th
Century) before modern communicational methods. They were published in England so the LDS folks there would have some idea of what the LDS folks on this side of the pond were hearing.I have found a lot of detractors claim that anything spoken by a latter-day prophet is absolutely correct and can be taken as doctrine. I personally disagree with such a supposition, and don't know any LDS folks who think differently....though there
may be some.There is a popular joke floating around (the LDS world) that says Catholicism teaches the Pope is infallible, but no Catholics believe it. And.......Mormon theology teaches the Prophet is fallible, but no Mormons believe it. I don't know if any
TTers find that funny, but in Mormonism it is quite humorous.FTR........Let me say that LDS theology teaches that anything revealed by God is 'scriptural'. But that is distinctly different than saying it is canonical. We have 4 books that we consider canon of scripture.....the "Standard Works". What if
found inside those works is considered doctrinal in the Church. That does not mean that some LDS folks don't interpret some of what's found there differently though. As in reading the Bible, there can be several different ways passages can be
understood.When the GAs (General Authorities) say something, it can be considered to be conjecture on their part, guessing, speculation.......or......more than likely it is considered to be material they/we believe is revealed to them from the Lord. Most often,
that is what they preach in their sermons. One seldom hears GAs speculating when they preach. But they may do so in other situations or even in their writings. What most LDS folks consider to be the most important words from one of our Church leaders
is when/if they say "thus saith the Lord". However, even using such language does not make it canonical. For it to be canonized, their words would have to be included in the Standard Works.I hope that clarifies it to your satisfaction, DavidM. And......I hope what I've said is reasonably accurate. Blaine.....feel free to correct me or add upon what I've said if you feel compelled.
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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