Judy Taylor wrote:
DAVEH: God had the ability to create a world without sin, and to offer an easy salvation. But that is not the way he did it. jt: God did create a world without sin and He does offer an easy salvation, after all it was he who provided the lamb. *****DAVEH: And did he not also provide the temptation? Doesn't it seem likely he intentionally created both for a purpose? jt: No he didn't because God can not be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man.DaveH: ??? So you don't believe Lucifer had a purpose in the Lord's plans for us? To me that seems a little peculiar that God created something as significant as Satan for no apparent reason.DaveH: Therefore, I believe God had a reason for allowing sin to be a part of his plans. (Hence the subject line to which we are now returning.) I'm trying to find out why Protestants think God 'created sin'. (Or perhaps that's a poor way of stating it......why you think God allows sin to exist.) jt: God did not 'create sin' *****DAVEH: I agree...... jt: No you don't agree because you keep on coming back to your belief that God is responsible and - everything he created was good.DaveH: You were probably not on TT when we previously discussed this. LDS folks agree.....no marriages will be performed in heaven. It is an earthly ordinance. However, we do believe marriages (properly performed on earth by those with the power to bind on earth) can join people together so that relationship will last eternally. Is not the family one of the most important things in the Lord's eyes? I think I've heard that proclaimed from non LDS Christians before, and I suspect you would agree. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) If that is the case, then do you not think families would be important in heaven too? To me, the eternal nature of the family is a very fundamental and important aspect of LDS theology. It really surprises me that some Christians are so taken aback with such a notion.
DaveH: Perhaps that is where we are not communicating well. I believe what he created (including Satan) was for a "good" cause. The Devil was not "good", but he was certainly created by God....I suspect we can agree with that. To me, the question becomes what good can come of Lucifer's creation.*****DAVEH: Is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" considered 'good' from a Protestant's (or yours) perspective? jt: Possibly to look at but not to eat from as they were warned
DaveH: I find your view on that to be interesting. I could go off on a divergent thread at this point, but I'll refrain.....
....Sin is not good.
DaveH: While it is not "good", to me it seems to have a purpose that is intimately intertwined with salvation. Without sin (so to speak) there could not be salvation. I suppose you would say that without sin, there is no need for salvation. I would then ask where would we be and what would we be doing if there was no sin or need for salvation. When that question is answered (and I've never heard a Protestant answer it), then you will have the answer to the question of what is our purpose in life, and it's corollary, why are we here....FWIW......If any TTers expect me to change from my LDS leanings to their Protestant leanings, that is one question that will need to be addressed.
Would you rather have a heavenly dictator standing over you with a whip to make sure you do right? This is Satan's plan and it is called 'bondage' it is what Jesus died to deliver us from. DAVEH: I fully agree. But let me explain it from a different angle, Judy. God created Adam & Eve, knowing beforehand that they would succumb to temptation. (I assume you agree with that.) Then he places a temptation in the garden, knowing they would partake of the forbidden fruit, and what the consequences would be. If instead, God had simply not put that tempting fruit before them, would you then suggest he is a "heavenly dictator "?jt: I'm not going there - God made them free will agents. He is there for us when we do things His way and this is the lesson. My belief is that the 'fruit' was symbolic. It was a tree of fallen wisdom ie: the knowledge of good and evil whereas all they had known was good because they were innocent. But God always makes a way of escape and they didn't have to succumb. Especially not Adam. He made a choice. Eve was deceived.*****DAVEH: My mind keeps coming back to the fundamental question of why God put that temptation there IF it was to lead (and God knew the ramifications) to the magnitude of sacrifice his only begotten Son would have to suffer through. jt: Why keep beating a dead horse? That's how it is and going over and over it will not change scripture, nor will it change God.DaveH: The reason I keep asking is because it is such an important question to me. Protestantism's reluctance/inability to answer it fascinates me. I would think there would be a lot of Christians who would be pondering it's ramifications.......DaveH: UNLESS there is a good reason for those children to experience that situation. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, Judy. As a parent, I hope you can see the similarity of the situations that I'm trying to convey.jt: I understand what you are saying but not the point of all of it. Why accuse God? This is just the way it is and if there is more to it that we should know he will reveal this also - in his time, although it's not a ?? to me. I accept the fact that he is God and knows what he is doing. I haven't created anything so what right have I to question his lovingkindness toward his creatures?*****DAVEH: Then I suppose it would be a mystery until then.....or do you disagree? jt: Like I've said - not to me but if you are so curious then you need to ask about it..... I've been doing a little research, and have read that your Church believes that there was some kind of a council of gods in heaven and that Lucifer and Jesus (who are supposedly spirit brothers) both presented their plans. Lucifer's plan was to force men to worship god and Jesus' plan was to show them how to worship god. Lucifer's plan was rejected, and Jesus' plan was accepted. (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 4:103) Is the above what you believe DaveH?
DAVEH: Yes.
jt: This is interesting, why isn't it spoken of in scripture.
DaveH: Acts 2:23....."Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ......"
......IMO, this is a reference to such. Who do you think God engaged in "determinate counsel" with, Judy?
I also read that Mormons believe God lives on a planet called Kobe and that he has many wives. If this is also one of your beliefs then how can you claim that Mormonism is not extra biblical
DAVEH: ??? Who made that claim? I thought it is a given, that much of LDS theology is "extra biblical". Have you heard anybody (especially me) say otherwise?
and does not add to God's Word.
DAVEH: There is a big difference between not "adding to God's Word" to and revealing "God's Word". If you don't understand what I'm saying....I'll try to explicitly explain the difference as to how I see it.
God is Spirit and there is no marriage in heaven - Jesus said so. Judy
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Dave Hansen
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