David Miller wrote: >> My position is that those who are apart from God sometimes >> do experience God, before they have actually become born >> again and experienced the life changing experience of >> regeneration. Are we in agreement with this concept or >> not?
Dean wrote: > The term "apart from God" means just that -Apart From God. > These are parted from God. How can they be experience anything > of God while in that state. No I am not in agreement of this > statement. Now we are getting down to the crux of our differences. Let me argue your case a little from Scripture so you can see the ways in which I agree with you. Then I will present some other Scriptures that show how my views differ from yours. Jesus taught: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20 KJV) This passage basically teaches the core of what you are trying to say. However, what must be kept in mind is that this passage is speaking about a person's identity as either a true or false prophet. Fruit is something that a tree bears through much time and investment of energy. This passage does not address the idea that God manifests grace at different levels to different people, nor does it actually prohibit an evil tree from experiencing something good, such as grace from the Holy Spirit himself. Earlier in this chapter, Jesus taught, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matthew 7:11 KJV) Therefore, according to Jesus, doing good is something that even evil men can do, and I pose to you that if they do anything good, the source of that ultimately is God, whether they acknowledge it as God or not. James wrote: Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:16-17 KJV) So if every good gift comes from above, then when an evil man does good, the source of that also must come from above. James, the brother of Jesus, sheds more light on the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 7. He reiterates what Jesus taught, using the illustration of a fountain yielding both salt and fresh water. In his teaching, however, he readily acknowledges that both blessing and cursing does come from the same mouth, something which he says ought not so to be. He says it "ought not so to be" but at the same time acknowledges that it happens. Following is the passage quoted for your convenience: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (James 3:8-15 KJV) Even Paul, in his letter to the Romans, speaks about how God's grace manifests itself even greater in the presence of sin (Romans 5:20). This at first seems contrary to how many people think about God's grace. We generally think that God is favorable toward those who refrain from sin. Nevertheless, the Scriptures are true and cannot be broken. Therefore, we need to understand the work of God's grace in the life of the unbeliever and sinner. Jesus clearly taught a specific work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the unbeliever. It deserves our attention. Consider the following passage: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11 KJV) Now this passage is an important one in regards to preaching to sinners, which is what street preachers do in contrast to those who preach exclusively in pulpits. Here Jesus speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those anointed by Him. One of those works is to reprove the world of sin. You and I understand that this work of the Holy Spirit is manifested through people anointed by the Holy Spirit. The passage specifically says that the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of sin, "BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME." Therefore, this work identifies what the Holy Spirit is doing in the life of the unbeliever. The unbeliever does not believe in Jesus, and so the work of the Holy Spirit's job is to reprove him of sin. How does the Holy Spirit do that? Well, one way is through us who are filled with the Spirit. That's why Jesus said that this was something that would happen later, after they received the Holy Spirit. Then they would minister as Jesus did and take away the cloak of sin which unbelievers regularly wear. So this is what you and I do when we preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit to those who do not believe in Christ. We reprove sin. Nevertheless, this is not the only way in which the Holy Spirit works. The Holy Spirit is not just in our mouth as we speak such reproof, but he also works in the hearts of those who hear, to convince them that what we are speaking is true. That is why we often observe sinners come under conviction and cannot seem to just walk away. They disagree with us, and even become angry with us, but there is a work of the Holy Spirit going on in their heart BEFORE THEY ARE BORN AGAIN. So my point here is that we need to have some basic agreement about how God works in the lives of both those who do not believe in Jesus, and in those who do believe in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not an elitist who says, "oh, you are a member of such and such club, therefore, until you quit this religious club, there is nothing I can do for you." The Holy Spirit works without partiality as to whether a person is a Mormon, a Muslim, a Jew, or a Baptist. The very purpose and work of Jesus Christ is to cut across the religious boundaries of men. If we truly want to be effective in seeing Christ be all in all in our community, we need to adopt this perspective that God is mighty and working within the hearts of both believers and unbelievers to draw them unto Jesus. Such an understanding then leads us to see that God is working also within the hearts of Mormons as well as the hearts of Baptists. This does not mean that we give Mormon false doctrines a pass. It simply means that we do not mix our teaching of correction with religious bigotry. We work toward bringing the focus back upon Jesus Christ, and when people see Jesus, the works of men in religious rituals and creeds and organizations will just appear to be like the toys that children play with. Dean writes: > Didn't these demons in Matt 8:29 acknowledge his > power and authority? Reread it. Yes, they acknowledged his power and authority, but they did not confess him as Lord. Demons acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the same way that Howard Dean recognizes George Bush as President. :-) Dean wrote: > You cannot say one is in that light and teach > contrary to that light. I do not say that Mormons are "in that light" in the sense that they have salvation. The Mormons themselves say that they are not yet saved, so there really is no argument about this. One problem is that they think they can believe in Jesus without being saved. I consider that an impossibility. Their "faith" is presumption; otherwise, they would experience the new birth and know what we are talking about when we talk about the new birth. Setting Mormons aside for a moment, I'm not sure that your statement stands even concerning those who are in the light. For example, I believe that Kevin is in the light. He is my brother in the Lord and he has been born again. Yet, I have heard him teach something contrary to the light. He has taught that the Holy Spirit does not work in the lives of modern believers as taught in passages like John 14:12, 16:13, Acts 2:38-39, etc. Kevin has taught that there are no prophets today, which is in violation of 1 Cor. 12:21 because I have testified as his brother in Christ that I am a prophet. Read the whole text, 1 Cor. 12:12-31, and see how prophets are specifically mentioned as being part of the body of Christ in verse 28. So how can Kevin teach contrary to the light, yet be in the light, according to your perspective? David Miller wrote: >> I'm not talking about the grace of God which has brought >> the born again experience. We know and agree that those >> who believe in Christ do not continue to sin. Dean wrote: > Tell me-without God spirit can one even know good? > That is what you are saying? No, I am saying that if an atheist or a Mormon has any sense of right and wrong, that sense comes from God above, through a work of grace, and by a work of the Holy Spirit in the life of that person. David Miller wrote: >> Nevertheless, there is a work of God's Spirit that touches them while >> they are still in sin, and while they are still involved in false >> religions and false teachings. That is what I am seeking to get >> understanding and agreement about with you. You seem to think that if >> someone has gotten involved in a man-made religion that somehow that >> makes them anathema to God to such a degree that God does not reveal >> himself to them in any way. Dean wrote: > I am told to know them by their fruits-You are telling me > there is a another way to know them. No, I am not telling you that there is another way to know them. I'm simply saying that just because someone is a false prophet, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit has had nothing to do with them. Just look at Balaam as an obvious example. Balaam was a false prophet, yet the Holy Spirit spoke through him blessings upon Israel, did he not (see Numbers 24)? David Miller wrote: >> They are not clean. As we have heard DaveH confess many times, he >> acknowledges that he continues to sin. Joseph Smith said the same thing >> about himself. These men know that they are not born again and not yet >> saved. The problem is that they have hope that they will be saved >> because that is what their religion teaches them. They believe that >> because they have been baptized by the proper authority, they will be >> saved. This is just like the Pharisees who believed that because they >> were children of Abraham and circumcised, they would be saved. Dean wrote: > Here is where we differ the most. You believe they are here > to learn. I believe they are here to corrupt-it is their nature. > If they were seeking then they would have found- they are not > seeing because they do not want to do so. The bread has been > put before them and they will not eat-yet they claim to seek > bread-You claim they seek bread and still they do not eat. I don't claim that they seek bread. They are not here to learn or convert to some other form of Christianity. Different Mormons have come here for different reasons. DaveH seems to appreciate seeing for himself what non-Mormon Christians are like. He does not want to just take the word of his Mormon church about it. I think you ought to commend him for that. I certainly do. However, I think DaveH also is entertained by how varied the belief systems are among those outside Mormonism. I'm sure to him we all look like one big mess with regards to what we believe. We are clearly a mixture of wheat and tares growing together, and to someone who thinks their religion is the right religion, it can look like something they would best avoid. False religions have a way of making people feel safe. That is one reason why people are in them, besides the social and family benefits it might afford them. Dean wrote: > Give me evidence that they are eating God's bread > and we can talk-then we have something to work with- > and then I am with you and will show you the patience > of Job with them to my ability by my measure of faith. :-) Do you look for evidence of receptivity before you go to the Mormon conference to preach? I fail to see why you think someone must show an indication of receptivity before we can sow seed into his life. You are beginning to sound a lot like Judy now. :-) Hasn't this been her position? Dean wrote: > Our understanding of Gods word will never be perfect- > but to teach another way. If one is doing this I am > to try and tell them God's truths -up to a point > -then I must avoid them! How is this wrong? Here is what is wrong with it. If we divide from those who are teaching something we consider to be wrong, and they actually have some elements of truth that we need to hear, then we will be cutting off the source by which God might bring greater light to us. Furthermore, it may be that by our patience, God will use us to be a light to them and bring them into the correction that they need. Every cult that I have known instructs their followers to cut off those who are not part of their group. Think about that. Now think about what the Bible says about false teachers. Does it say to cut them off, or does it warn us to beware of them? Now I grant you that there are intimate ways of relationship that ought to be cut off. To go to one extreme, I would never marry a Mormon girl. I would not marry a girl that was not born again and filled with the Holy Ghost. Coming closer to home, I would not house Mormon missionaries in my home as they went out everyday proselytizing my community. Nevertheless, this is much different than preaching to Mormons in public places, and it is much different than writing e-mails back and forth with them. Jesus went into the homes of Pharisees and ate with them, even right after teaching us this same thing that you teach, the importance of having our eye single. Look at it: No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them. Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him. (Luke 11:33-54 KJV) I quote so much of it so that you can see that this Pharisee and the lawyers who also ate with him were not believers. Jesus reviled them and rebuked them, just as street preachers do in their preaching. Yet, he sat down to eat with them. Please contrast this with the passages that tell us not to eat with brothers who are in sin. Judy and I have both addressed this with you many times, but you seem unable to assimilate this information in the same way that the Mormons cannot comprehend the false teachings that we expose in their teachings. Dean wrote: > Then you would have to put Jesus and John in this class of religious > bigot. God would also fit you definition of religious bigot. No, Dean. Jesus spoke to the woman at the well and brought her words of life. He did not say in his heart, "she is a Samaritan, so I will have nothing to do with her." Dean wrote: > You are the one holding different standard toward Baptist > and Mormons. I tell both groups the truth. It seems to me that you think it is ok for Baptists to be on this list but not Mormons. Am I wrong in this perspective? Dean wrote: > I am told to remove myself from those who teach another > gospel after showing the truth-I will do this to all. Does this mean that you will no longer go to the Mormon convention to preach? Where does the Bible teach this attitude? Paul said: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. (1 Corinthians 5:9-10 KJV) So Paul clarifies, that the unbelievers we may eat with, but a brother of the faith who walks in sin, we should not eat with him. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11 KJV) Dean wrote: > I can support what I say with the Bible- > I don't see you doing so. I have shared much Bible with you. The problem is that like the Mormons, you just don't accept it. We clearly have a different way of looking at how intimate e-mail is and whether or not e-mail can be a public forum open to everyone. You seem to have the mindset that a believer like myself cannot create an open forum using an e-mail list. David Miller wrote: >> Imagine a Baptist and a Mormon standing next to each other in a park. >> They see in the distance a homeless man being beaten and robbed of his >> food stamps. As the attackers run off, the Baptist is thinking to >> himself what he should do, while the Mormon goes to the hurt man, puts >> him in his car, and takes him home and cares for him until he is better. >> Which of these two men do you think was walking in the grace of Christ? >> Do you think the scenario is impossible because a Mormon would never act >> with this kind of love? Do you think that the Mormon must have some >> ulterior selfish motive because he is Mormon and not Baptist? Dean wrote: > Does the Mormon do well for goodness sake or does he say in > his heart: "If I help this man I will be a greater God in > eternity"? And how would one know this-by their short term > words or their long term words? If they have so much > goodness/light why do they not speak Jesus Christ > (the one of the bible)? These are good questions, Dean. Men certainly may hold the truth in unrighteousness. My point in the story was that I think whether or not the do-gooder was a Mormon makes little difference. If we are talking about a Baptist or a Mormon, we should look at the situation the same. I chose a Mormon for the do-gooder in my story for the same reason that Jesus chose a Samaritan as the do-gooder in his story that answered the question of who is our neighbor. Just as Jews were more suspicious of a Samaritan than a priest or Levi, in the same way I think you are more suspicious of a Mormon than a Baptist. You seem to be skeptical to the point that it seems that perhaps you cannot imagine a Mormon doing anything good. I'm concerned about that attitude and hope you will show me that you do not have that attitude. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
