[TruthTalk] Covenant versus Contract

[Judy Taylor]

We probably need to lay all preconceived ideas aside and examine our understanding of what grace means, that is the definition of grace in the Word of God. We are taught that it means "unmerited favor" - who coined that one?  We are also taught that noone could ever fulfill God's Law (which makes Him a bit of an ogre because all through the OT this was His standard with covenant blessings for those who walked in his statutes and covenant curses following those who did not) along with a place of repentance (through the Levitical system) for those who missed it and had to repent.   The word "contract" is not scriptural and neither is "unmerited favor" and the condition for receiving grace from God (which incidentally is the ability to do as we ought) is obedience from the heart. Yes we can be conformed to His image and yes we can also fulfill the law through Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21); Paul said he wasn't without the law to God but under the law to Christ and this is where we are at also if we are His.  judyt   From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A distinction I've found helpful on this C vs C discussion is drawn from IF & IFF. The former can be understood as" If this then that" while the latter is understood to mean (not say) "If and only if". `Are there "conditions" attached to grace? If there are and, we are fallen how then do we fulfil them? If we "do" them without assistance then we are not THAT fallen. If we "do" them with assistance (divine) then we are priviledged over those who are not the recipients of such. One can see where this leads.Lance   From: Judy Taylor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] the  flow of the blood is eternal and continual, that our sins are remembered NO MORE.   jt: Unrepented sin has not gone anywhere John and there is nothing wrong with God's memory  The problem for the sinner is not sin,  it is the decision to avoid God and, hence, His solution.    jt: And why do we avoid God? Go back to Genesis 3:10 "I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself" The problem is already solved. jt: Not when sin is still present just holding to a doctrine will not cleanse the heart John john: I am not surprised at Blaine's  works salvantionist position.     jt: If it is the post I am thinking of Blaine posted the words of Jesus ONLY.  How does obedience to God become "works-salvation?"   john:  but the single most devastating teaching, striking at the very heart of Mormonism, is the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from obedience to a system of commandments.   jt: What about obedience to the Word of God (the Lord Jesus Christ)   john: If we are saved by grace, there is no for the "right church."   jt: There is ONLY one right one and that is the one that Jesus is presently building. Central to the biblical doctrine of grace is the very obvious reality that man is a sinner.  Tons of bible on this.  I Jo 1:8 makes a statement in greek, a present tense statement:   "if we say that we are having no sin, the truth is not within us."   When I sat in first year greek and read that, understanding the impact of continuous linear action  ("are having no")  I was stunned.      jt: Because of the condition of our heart and the old Adamic nature which plagues us.  However, "IF we confess our sin, HE is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) - so what does that make us?   My mind did not race to figure out how to escape the implications of this verse.   Implications?  I mean I as sitting in greek class, for crying out loud studying "the Word of God.'   Not smoking.  Not drinking.  Not lusting.  No t ...    well you get it. AND STARING ME IN THE FACE, RIGHT THERE IN GREEK 101, WAS A VERSE THAT SAID I WAS HAVING SIN RIGHT THEN.  Bummer.     jt: Why? This is the reality and when we begin to deal with Truth is when we make progress.  Since that first shock, I have come to realize that sin exists in, at least, two quantitative forms:  time/space   (historical sins such as drinking, lying, and the like  --- things that last for a relatively brief period of time; things I can hide;  things that often do not define who I am)  and sins of character  --  like envy, jealousy, hatred, bitterness, anger, slothfulness  --  all those things that lay the foundation for  historical sin.   One murders because one is filled with hate or some type of perversion.   jt: We don't have to look to tradition or history.  The mirror will tell us where the sin problem resides: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come FROM WITHIN and defile the man. (Mark 7:21)   This is exactly why Paul says that "all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of God."     jt: Because we are all born into this world with this Adamic "fallen" human nature and a heart described as in Mark 7:21.     Grace people recognize the fact that sin is ever upon us, inescapable, often intentional, always disastrous and deserving of death.   Works are commanded, they are necessary, but they are never accomplished by those who are righteous on their merits  --  never.   So God substitutes our faith for our supposed righteousness and refuses to consider our sins.   jt: This is where things get a bit twisted.  Righteousness and obedience are both the fruit of repentance and faith which in themselves are gifts from God.  Judyt