[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 4/3/2004 5:18:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:DAVEH: You are partially correct John. I don't recall saying I was not looking to grow. Nor am I on the list as an observer. I consider myself a participant.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:We gottem, guys. The perfect way to defeat these evile Mormons.
D
AVEH: Ahhhhhh.....I didn't know your intention was to defeat me, John. Thought I know you posted this in a humorous light, I think it reflects the attitude of many TTers. When you think about the intent of many posts, ask yourself: Is this meant as a two way communication to learn, or is it meant as an attack? I almost hope others might be sincerely interested in knowing what I believe.You have made it clear that you have no interest in change. You are here in this list as an observer, not looking to grow; only looking to learn (these were your words, remember, and I responded by saying "to learn is to grow.")
My comments above were a joke and you understood that.DAVEH: I assume you ask these rhetorically, not expecting an answer.....Are we brothers in Christ? Why do we share concepts? Do we serve the same God?
Heavy, heavy (seriously). Some on this list might suppose that you and Blaine, deep down inside, hope to establish the kind of relationship with us "Protestants" that will result in the conversion of just one on this list. Say it isn't so.DAVEH: I can't speak for Blaine, but from my perspective......it isn't so. I would certainly be happy if any TTers eventually convert to Mormonism, but it is not my expectation, intention or purpose in being here to bring such to pass.
But ....DAVEH: I am very aware of that, and think that explains why so many TTers think I am on TT for the same reason. Most TTers have got to know that the LDS Church is a proselytizing denomination, and I have served in such a capacity. But as I would think you folks have now realized by our (LDS) reactions to some of the street preacher antics, we aren't into confrontational proselytizing at all. If folks don't want to hear our message, we won't try to cram it down their throats. IF TTers (as a whole, or from management's perspective) do not want me here in an effort to protect their more susceptible members.....just say so, and I'll be gone. I have gone overboard to try to avoid posting LDS scriptural passages here, except when asked to do so, as I don't want folks to think I am abusing my visitor's privileges. I've admitted to my LDS biases, and pose my Bible related questions in an effort to contrast my beliefs to yours so I can try to figure out why you and I obtain different understandings from the same passages. To me....that is very interesting and keeps me asking the questions. Unfortunately, few TTers find it as interesting as I do, and instead feel happier attacking my beliefs in order to show others how evil my presumed cult like beliefs are.I doubt anyone on my side of the ledger feels differently, truth be told.
We all hope for agreement that leads to a true unquestioned sense of fellowship. If I reported to you my conversion to Mormonism, you would rejoice.DAVEH: Probably not nearly as much as you would suppose, John. I'm a little to old and tired to get too excited about such things.....though the angels of heaven my throw a party! <VBG>
Conversely, ditto.DAVEH: What's wrong with chatting? Surely there are things you've wanted to know about Mormonism? (Well....maybe you've already asked your relatives.) As for me, there are a lot of things I want to know about Protestant beliefs, but few really want to discuss them. Seems they enjoy attacking and denigrating more than seriously discussing theology.In the event that this is not going to happen, what then?
Perry (I believe) has remarked concerning being genuine in your presentations.DAVEH: Do you share his concerns about my genuineness?
A point well taken by us all.DAVEH: IMO it is.Genuineness #1
Example: are we brothers in Christ, I asked? There is a sense in which we are brothers, from your point of view (and Blaine's). You have so stated. Genuineness comes into play because, well, we are not talking about the same thing. Your church does not consider, it does not entertain, the thought of joint participation (another nuance of "fellowship") Your church considers itself on a plain with other world religions. Most on this list do not have that consideration. We are a part of the whole for the most part. In the Christian sense, then, we are not brothers, if not for any reason other than this: your Chruch does not regard us as brothers.
Genuiness #2
You claim "church unity" and argue against the claim that Mormonism has failed in the primary reason for its existence, that is to stand as a testimony against a divided apostate church. If I have it right, the Mormon church is the fruit of God's determination to get it right the second time around. And how is this established in the face of a divided Mormon church? "We excluded those people. Therefore, the Church continues to be what the apostate church is not." Not an argument anyone on this list believes. Funny, I grew up in a church that had exactly the same opinion. It is a good thing several of us were not born into the Mormon church, because we would be saying, "Wait a minute -- church unity is established and continued through the process of excommunication? That is not unity, it is sectarianism at its worst." I guarantee you this would be me. For some of us, "truth" and logic is more important than "the right church." And what would happen to us if this were the case. Would we be allowed to continue. Absolutely not. Mormonism is not a fellowship of truth seekers. Is that bad? Not necessarily, I guess. There are lots of Christian churches that fit this description. But they are not for me. They are not genuine.People say and do exactly the same thing for only one of two reasons --- tyranny or mental retardation
So I guess I am asking this -- is our conversation genuine?
If we are not brothers, say so.DAVEH: As (spirit) children of our Heavenly Father, YES.....we share a common brotherhood. As brothers in Christ.....Yes again, as we have a common Elder Brother who has given us......
1) an objective (return to heaven), and
2) provided the means (grace)
3) and shown us a detailed a map (the gospel) of how to get there.
........ think we all agree on the first two, but the third one seems to be where we all get screwed up. Most TTers look at the rule book (Bible) and come to different conclusions about what various parts of it mean. The differences become even greater when different denominations look at that same set of instructions. Then the Mormons come around and adopt some additional rules that are revealed outside the boundaries most Christians assume. So....in light of all this, the aspect of brotherhood tends to start getting all blurred and fuzzy to some. But it seems (from my perspective) that most LDS folks have a much broader definition of brotherhood than I've seen on TT.
You have been in this list for 4 years, I believe. You know us.DAVEH: LOL.....well, John.......I'm a slow learner with a bad memory. I've certainly learned a lot about you folks, but hope to learn more.
You know how we use words and the meanings we attach to them.DAVEH: Yeah.....but I still have a lot to learn. For instance....Protestant....but, that is probably best left to another thread!
Let's be straight up with each other -- or should I say "let's continue this honest discussion."DAVEH: I did not perceive it that way at all. And.....I felt a little awkward responding to your playful post with material that was relatively serious. But I felt compelled to do so, as it seemed appropriate to bring my thoughts on this to the table.By the way -- do not imagine this to be an angre reply.
I am fine with this discussion. In fact, it may be the most honest of discussions between the two sides I have seen in the short time I have been on this awesome list.DAVEH: I'm glad you feel that way, John. I appreciate you being willing to chat without feeling you are trying to beat me up.
--
Give them so many posts they can't respond and we CLAIM victory in the spirit ofLots of material = high volumn quanity = "quantitative" debate -- funny"quantitative" debate.DAVEH: Again John, I know you are jesting, which is OK. But from a serious standpoint, what kind of defeat does one achieve (or what kind of battle is won) by puffing one's feathers.....Dave, things are often considered funny because they are rediculous. My comment using the word "defeat" is rediculous out of hand (in my mind) so I thought it would be funny. Is it possible to truly defeat anyone by sending them so much email that they cannot keep up?
IMO, real winning is accomplished when two Christians work toward one common goal.....returning to Heaven. Perhaps I am too naively Mormon to think this way though. From what I've learned on TT, becoming saved is the goal of most Christians, and what happens beyond that has little significance I suppose.This is not my primary purpose. Salvation has already oocurred. Christ has died once and for all time to save us all. Salvation is ours to lose. And we can lose it. My hearts desire is to learn more about God and what His hopes and plans are for me. I realize His will for me as I listen to the words of judy, the admonitions of Lance, the teaching of Bill, the challeges of David Miller, your (and Blaine;s) exchanges, Perry's admonitions in regards to staying on course, Terry's pastoring, and the fellowship of my church. In all this I am listening to the voice of God John (IJo 1:7 says "If we walk in the light ..... we have fellowshiop with one another." . If I worried about salvation, I would not be in this group for fear of apostasy. Additionally, the biblical message is at the center of all this instruction. How we got the Bible is of little concern except to convince me not to be belligerent with those who do not share the same degree of reverence I have (in faith) for the Book. I cannot defend how we got the Bible. I don't even know who wrote half of the books within the Book. I accept it in faith, trusting that God will work its message to my good. And faith can be as strong and on point as anyone's reality (" ..substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen ..")My boys called me from UC Davis some time ago. "Dad, we have this Prof who is attacking the Bible. How do we prove inspiration?" I told them that such has the force of conviction to those, and only to those who already believe." In other words, Boys, you're screwed.
"OK, they said -- so what do we say?"
"Remind him," I said, "that most if not all of the authors of the New Testament scriptures actually died for their faith. With that in mind, doesn't the Bible deserve consideration because it was written by honest men who were willing, to the man, to die for what they had written. Shouldn't we at least consider it?" I do not know if that logic worked on their Prof, but I do know that it worked on them, and for their Dad, that was the most important of considerations. Faith, that day, was stronger than the Enemy's reality. Salvation is God part of the deal. Faith is my responsiblity. How can it not be the door to God's visitation? So I work to increase that faith and leave the defence of the "truth" to others. I might add, the Bible is my only source of revelatory authority for the same reason given to the Prof. Paul and Peter and John and the rest, died for the faith. If the church did not survive, if the Word thay wrote was not the full revelation, their sight was veiled and their defense was in vain. I think not.
(
Still true.Sometimes I just amaze myelf)
JohnDAVEH: I can't speak for Blaine, but as for myself, I've been a bit too busy lately. And with the massive volume of posts, it is sometimes all I can do to read through them to find questions directed to me. Otherwise, I tend to delete many of them without really thoughtfully reading them through. I wish I had time to engage in may of the threads (particularly the grace related discussions), but it is too time consuming at this point.
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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