Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection

[Dave]

DAVEH:  Hope you don't mind me making some observations Perry.  Normally I don't feel compelled to intervene in others' personal exchanges, but since you are talking about me.....I suspect you will accept/expect my intrusion. Charles Perry Locke wrote: DavidM, this stems back to about a year ago. DavidH has a pat statement that he makes whenever he explains why he is on TT. I have seen him state it so often that in my mind I think of it as his TT credo. Paraphrasing, in his credo he states that he is not on TT to push Mormonism, and is not here to learn truth, but is here ot learn what "protestants" believe. Ignoring the insinuation in his credo that protestants don't know truth, DAVEH:  Am I the only one in TT to notice there seems to be a question of what is true and what is not?  If the truth is so apparently obvious, I wonder why some folks tend to get their noses bent all out of shape in these discussions..... that leaves two things...to learn what protestants believe, but not to push Mormonism. About a year ago I went a few rounds with DavidM about the fact that he has been on TT for three years (at that time, four now) and still asks the same questions of protestants and what they believe. DAVEH:  Have you not noticed that not everybody considers you the defining argument of truth, Perry?  If it were so, we could just dispense with this forum nonsense, and you could just preach your version of the truth to us, and we'd lap it up without question. Obviously, he has not learned what protestants believe in the 3 years (now 4) he has been on TT. DAVEH:  I do have a short memory....   :-) In fact, once he asks someone what they believe, he often then debates them on it. Now debating is okay on TT. That is one of it's purposes. But to say you are here to learn what someone believes, and then turn on them and try to debate them is disingenuous. DAVEH:  Nonsense.  Debate is a legitimate form of extracting more information than is apparent at the surface level.  Why do you think people engage in debates anyway?  Do you think there is an expectation that debates actually cause one of the debater to acquiesce to the other?  As I view it (and I thought was the premise of this Forum), debates within TT are meant to cause people to think about what others believe and why they believe it.....which parallels my reason for being here.  If every discussion in TT is supposed to have the conclusion that one of the debaters is supposed to concede to the argument of the other and change to thinking that way......then in very short order, everybody here would end up thinking like Gary!    :-D Merriam Webster: disingenuous - giving a false appearance of simple frankness DAVEH:  OK......So you are saying I'm not frank in a simple manner......?  I do find it interesting that you are so intent to think I have a hidden agenda of (presumably) trying to convert TTers to Mormonism.  Here is an example. Did you see the movie "Mars Attacks"? In this movie the Martians are marching through the streets playing a recording (credo?) "Do not run. We will not harm you. We are your friends", or something like that. At the same time they are mercilesslty firing on and killing the very humans they are telling not to run or be afraid. While that is an extreme example, DaveH is doing the same thing in a subtle way. I was deceived by his TRUE intentions after having heard his credo. DAVEH:  LOL......And, what are/were your intentions for coming to TT, Perry?  If I had not been a TTer, you would not have become one either.  Hmmmmm.....I think your (hidden) agenda might be to convert me away from Mormonism.....   And failing that, you feel compelled to attack my intentions to point out my (alleged) hypocrisy.  As a normal TTer, I can understand you doing that.  As a moderator, I am surprised you seemingly continue to have this compulsion.   If I were to take your advice and admit to something I don't think I'm doing, wouldn't that make me hypocritical for doing something merely to satisfy your fears?  However, if I continue as I have in the past, you will perceive me as a hypocrite anyway.  Either way.....I come out on the bottom end of this.  What do you want me to do, Perry....leave TT so we can both be right?  Forgive me for questioning your perception on this, but as a moderator......why does this bother you???      A few weeks ago you said you've noticed a change in my postings in recent months, so you would give me a tentative pass to see if I would betray my stated intentions.  Now you are ragging on me again......have you noticed something I've done to justify your renewed accusations? He pounced on me the first week I was in TT, DAVEH:  LOL.......Yep, that's me.  I am a big pouncer, as anybody can see.  I'm very surprised you survived my vicious attacks back then, Perry....!   ;-) and not knowing he was being disingenuous, took his bait. I very honestly and openly told him what I believed because he said that is what he wanted to "learn what protestants beleive". But then he came back and began to debate what I beleived from his LDS perspective. Again, that is okay on TT, it just is not what he told me he wanted to accomplish. He misled me. DAVEH:   Shucks.......If I had realized you were so naive, I would have handled you with kid gloves.....   And to think......I almost had you converted to Mormonism!   ;-) I then realized that he didn't really want to know what I beleive. instead he wanted to debate me on what I believe. So, when DH makes the statement that he is not here to push Mormonism, I expect him to be true to his word and not push Mormonism. And when he does, he makes himself out to be a liar. Now, there is nothing wrong with pushing Mormonism on TT. That is okay. The problem comes in when DaveH does what he says he is not here to do. That makes him out to be a liar. DAVEH:    I find it very interesting that you aren't the only TTer who believes I'm a liar, Perry.  Now you have me wondering if all TTers feel that way....  I do have to admit, you've piqued my curiosity on this.    And.......FTR....I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Now, if DavidH updated his credo to include what he actually does do on TT, it would be something like this, "I am here to try to understand what "protestants" believe, and if it is different than what I believe, I might choose to debate you on it, and even use my LDS beliefs in the debate." Now, THAT would say exactly what DaveH does on TT. DAVEH:  You have your perception of what I do on TT, Perry.....and I have mine.  For me to agree with you, would (IMO) make me the liar you accuse me of being.  To me, you are putting me in a position I really can't win.  As I said before, I'm damned if I do.....and, I'm damned if I don't.  As an outsider of sorts, I wonder why a TT moderator wants to put somebody in that situation. His stated goals would be congruent with his actions. He would not, then, be misleading in his credo, and would not make himself out to be a liar. I am open to the possibility that DavidH does not see this incongruity between his stated beliefs and his actions. DAVEH:  If you concede that possibility, Perry......than (assuming that is the case), how can you be so quick to condemn me as a liar?  Misinformed, confused, illogical.....I'm sure there are a lot of words that could describe me in that instance......but.....liar???  Do you really want to pin that label on my chest, Perry? But, I take him to be much smarter than that. DAVEH:  And as a moderator, I expect you to be much smarter than to accuse any TTer of being a liar.      Now....let me apologize for perhaps being a little too judgmental on this Perry.  Maybe you've hit a raw nerve with this.  Normally, I don't take offense at what other TTers say or think about me.  And.....I should probably let this roll off my back as well.  I think the difference is your position as moderator.  If this is acceptable behavior for a TT moderator, then I'll take my lashes and remain quiet the next time a moderator publicly impugns my integrity.  If on the other hand, you've stepped a little beyond the bounds of Forum etiquette, no need to apologize....I'd just request you lighten up a bit in the future.  My adviceto you would be to relax a little and enjoy TT for what it is without questioning the motives of those participating. Perry From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:08:39 -0400 Perry wrote: > ... I just cringe when you say (type) that you are > not hear [sic] to teach LDS theology, then you teach > LDS theology. I understand Dave to be saying that the reason he is here is not to teach LDS theology.  In other words, his purpose for being here is not to proselytize or teach others about Mormonism.  That does not mean that he will never teach LDS theology while he is here.  I really don't understand your problem with this.  It is kind of like stopping at a gas station for gas, but then after you are there you decide to buy a coke. Did you go to the gas station for gas or a coke?  It seems reasonable to me that if people are going to ask Dave about his beliefs, or if he is being challenged about his beliefs, then he might share what his beliefs are, even if they are LDS in origin.  Such does not mean that his reason for being here has changed anymore than someone would argue that you stopped at the gas station for a coke just because you bought one.  Your real motivation was to get gas, not to get a coke. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.