I wrote > This we must return to
over and over again: whatever the sin that ensnares these people, Christ carried
it with him to the cross. For their sins he died. And when he died, they died.
And when he rose again, they too rose with him. They are included in him, just
like you are and I am; this because God so loves them.
Terry responded > Bill, you just
totally lost me. Maybe you could say it some other way that is more
understandable. I see those who are wicked, as I once was, nowhere near
the cross, not covered by the redeeming blood. That is why they are called
lost.
I included this passage >
"And you He made alive, who were dead in
trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of
this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now
works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted
ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and
of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the
others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with
which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us
alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised
us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places
in Christ Jesus," (Eph 2.1-6).
Terry responded > You might also
want to tell me what you think this means since it seems to go with the above
paragraph.
Hi Terry,
The wicked are lost because of unbelief. Yet their
unbelief does not exclude them from the reality of the cross. They simply -- yet
blatantly -- refuse to believe the truth of their inclusion in Christ. If this
unbelief \ rejection continues unto death, they will be damned -- perhaps better
stated, they will have damned themselves.
How do we know that they are included in Christ
Jesus? Because, as we see in Eph 1.13, salvation was made a reality in Christ at
the cross, i.e. it is real and true and complete before people
believe it: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed,
you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, . . ." The word of truth, the
good news of their salvation was already true and real and complete before they
heard it, before they trusted in Jesus Christ, and before they believed and were
sealed with the Holy Spirit. The same is true for us; it is also true for those
who because of unbelief have become utterly wicked.
I included the passage above (Eph 2.1-6) because it
shows quite clearly the inclusive nature of Christ's atoning work. The
Christians to whom Paul refers were as messed up as they come. It is evident
that there is nothing causative that these believers did to bring about their
salvation. They were as dead in sin as the next guy when Christ went to the
cross. Yet while they were dead (and, like dead people, could do nothing!), God
made them alive together with Christ in Christ's resurrection. Since
these Christians did nothing of themselves to gain status or inclusion in
Christ, we may know that all humans are included in Christ, and raised up
together, and made to sit together in the heavenlies in Christ
Jesus.
I hope this helps you to understand what I was
attempting to say.
Blessings,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:35
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates
Wm. Taylor wrote:
Greetings, Terry. I apologize for the delay in
getting back to you. My AC adapter died on my Laptop and so I did not
have a computer for a few days.
Yes, I have come across this verse on occasion.
Psalm 5.4-6 is a another passage with equally strong language. I must tell
you that these passages are unsettling to me: I do not like to think that
our God hates anyone. Nevertheless I must be willing to take them under
consideration and seek God's heart in trying to understand
them.
I think first I would like to tell you what I
do not think this is saying about God. God does not will to hate certain
people, while at the same time will to love others, and this in an
indiscriminate way that can only be described from our perspective in
terms that appear arbitrary at best, as if he created ABCs to love
and XYZs to hate. If you happen to be from the first group, great, God loves
you and will call you to himself; if you are from the latter group, too bad,
God hates you and you're toast, and this because he has created you for
a different end. This sort of theology forces a dichotomy within the
Godhead, dueling wills, if you will -- a split personality. A condition
like this should not be considered anything other than the
deep psychosis it is. Why would a sane God
command us to love our enemies when he himself does not? and more to the
point, from where would the goodness and persuasion come to love our enemies
if not from him whose wondrous love compels us to love even those who hate
us? tc Wow! Amazing! We are in total
agreement so far.
Is it possible to love and hate the same object
at the same time? If we define hate as the antithesis of love, I think it
would be impossible to do this, because that kind of hate would exclude
love. Some hate is anti-love, that is sure, but I think there must also be
hate that is something other than this. Jesus tells us we must "hate" our
father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, even our own
life, or we cannot be his disciples (Luk 14.26). Yet certainly we are to
love them too. What kind of hate is this? and how can we love our
neighbor as ourselves and at the same time be disciples of Christ if
this hate is anti-love? We can go into what I think this "hate" is in
another post if you wish, but for the purpose of this discussion, it is
obvious that hate does not have to exclude love. It must be possible to
love one's father and mother, etc. and hate them at the same time.
tc I think possibly Jesus was making a
comparison here. Our love for God has to be so strong that the love we
have for our loved ones would be, by comparison, puny and weak. He
would not tell us to love our enemy and hate our mother.
When we read passages that say God hates
certain people -- whether evil, or violent and wicked -- does this
mean that he does not love them? Is his hate for them anti-love, or is it
some other kind of hate that he holds for those people, maybe something
similar to the hate we are to have for ourselves, and mom and dad? This
is a fair question and we should try to answer it. We need to be
honest, though, when we do, and recognize that our answer will be shaped by
our present view of God. The way we "see" God determines the way we
think about him. This is true for me; it is true for you
too. tc I have no doubt that God would
prefer to love them. His nature is to love. Some people though,
will not allow God to love them, or maybe I should say they sneer at His love
until His love in exasperation turns to hate, and He gives them over to a
reprobate mind. God loved us first, and like all lovers, He wants that
love returned. As a matter of fact, He demands that that love be
returned.
Let me tell you what I do think. Love is the
heart of God. It speaks to that eternal relationship between the Father
and the Son in the Holy Spirit. When we talk about the "essence" of
God, love is in the center of it. "God is love." Everything else,
whether it be his holiness or justice or whatever, everything else that is
essence must be understood only as it relates to his love, as disclosed by
the incarnate Word himself. tc Excellent
point.
There are other things that God does that are
not things which describe him in his essence. Forgiveness, for example, is
something that springs from his essence, but is not itself of his essence. I
say this because there was nothing to forgive when all there was was God --
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Wrath is not of the essence of God; there was
nothing to be wrathful about until there was sin. Again,
excellent. Something I had never considered
before
Just as those things that are of the
essence of God must be defined in relationship to love, so also must those
that are not. God is patient, and kind, and merciful, and gracious, and
forgiving, because he is love. These things flow forth from his love. The
same must be said about wrath. Wrath is God's love in action against
anything that sets itself to destroy his creation or diminish his
worth. Makes sense.
Hate is not of the essence of God. When all
there was was that triune relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit, there was no hate (no matter how it is defined) in God. Yet we must
say that within the makeup of God (his essence) there is potential to hate,
just like there is potential to forgive. We find in Scripture in the verse
you mentioned and elsewhere that God does hate, and he hates not only
sin but in some cases (at least) the sinner too. I believe that God
has all the emotions that He has given us
God is love; he wills to
hate. This gets back to my initial complaint. We dare not stand the love of
God side-by-side over against his hate, as if he could go one way
as willfully as the other. Whatever it means to say that God hates, we
must understand it as something that springs forth out of love. I think people can become so wicked and corrupt that all
there is, as far as their works, is evil. They have so sold themselves
out to sin that they have become totally depraved (cf. Rom 1. 28-32). These
are those whom God hates. That said, I do not believe that he ever
stops loving them. He is not indifferent. It is because he loves them that
he hates them. That last line does not compute for me. To me,
love/hate is like start/stop or forward/reverse. You can do one followed by
the other, sometimes rather quickly, but I cannot picture both at the same
time.
This we must return to over and over again:
whatever the sin that ensnares these people, Christ carried it with him to
the cross. For their sins he died. And when he died, they died. And when he
rose again, they too rose with him. They are included in him, just like you
are and I am; this because God so loves them. Bill, you just
totally lost me. Maybe you could say it some other way that is more
understandable. I see those who are wicked, as I once was, nowhere
near the cross, not covered by the redeeming blood. That is why they
are called lost.
"And you He made alive, who
were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to
the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom
also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in
mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when
we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace
you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us
sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Eph
2.1-6).You might also want to tell me what you think this means sinxe it
seems to go with the above paragraph.
I will not stop thinking about your
question, Terry. The truth is, it has haunted me for a long time. But I
am not comfortable going any further right now. I hope I have given you
enough to begin to apprehend where I am coming
from. I really appreciate the effort you have gone
to in order to answer my query. It tells me that we are not always at
opposite ends of the spectrum, and there is room to learn from one
another. I was thinking that since you had not responded, that you
considered my question to be insincere. Terry
Bill
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