Wm. Taylor wrote:
I wrote > This we must return
to over and over again: whatever the sin that ensnares these people,
Christ carried it with him to the cross. For their sins he died. And
when he died, they died. And when he rose again, they too rose with
him. They are included in him, just like you are and I am; this because
God so loves them.
Terry responded > Bill, you
just totally lost me. Maybe you could say it some other way that is
more understandable. I see those who are wicked, as I once was,
nowhere near the cross, not covered by the redeeming blood. That is
why they are called lost.
I included this passage > "And you He made alive, who were dead
in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the
course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom
also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in
mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when
we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by
grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and
made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ
Jesus," (Eph 2.1-6).
Terry responded > You might
also want to tell me what you think this means since it seems to go
with the above paragraph.
Hi Terry,
The wicked are lost because of
unbelief. Yet their unbelief does not exclude them from the reality of
the cross. They simply -- yet blatantly -- refuse to believe the truth
of their inclusion in Christ. If this unbelief \ rejection continues
unto death, they will be damned -- perhaps better stated, they will
have damned themselves.
How do we know that they are
included in Christ Jesus? Because, as we see in Eph 1.13, salvation was
made a reality in Christ at the cross, i.e. it is real and true and
complete before people believe it: "In Him you also trusted, after
you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom
also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
. . ." The word of truth, the good news of their salvation was already
true and real and complete before they heard it, before they trusted in
Jesus Christ, and before they believed and were sealed with the Holy
Spirit. The same is true for us; it is also true for those who because
of unbelief have become utterly wicked.
I included the passage above (Eph
2.1-6) because it shows quite clearly the inclusive nature of Christ's
atoning work. The Christians to whom Paul refers were as messed up as
they come. It is evident that there is nothing causative that these
believers did to bring about their salvation. They were as dead in sin
as the next guy when Christ went to the cross. Yet while they were dead
(and, like dead people, could do nothing!), God made them alive
together with Christ in Christ's resurrection. Since these
Christians did nothing of themselves to gain status or inclusion in
Christ, we may know that all humans are included in Christ, and
raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenlies in
Christ Jesus.
I hope this helps you to understand
what I was attempting to say.
Blessings,
Bill
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates
Wm. Taylor wrote:
Greetings, Terry. I apologize
for the delay in getting back to you. My AC adapter died on my Laptop
and so I did not have a computer for a few days.
Yes, I have come across this
verse on occasion. Psalm 5.4-6 is a another passage with equally strong
language. I must tell you that these passages are unsettling to me: I
do not like to think that our God hates anyone. Nevertheless I must be
willing to take them under consideration and seek God's heart in trying
to understand them.
I think first I would like to
tell you what I do not think this is saying about God. God does not
will to hate certain people, while at the same time will to love
others, and this in an indiscriminate way that can only be described
from our perspective in terms that appear arbitrary at best, as if he
created ABCs to love and XYZs to hate. If you happen to be from the
first group, great, God loves you and will call you to himself; if you
are from the latter group, too bad, God hates you and you're toast, and
this because he has created you for a different end. This sort of
theology forces a dichotomy within the Godhead, dueling wills, if you
will -- a split personality. A condition like this should not be
considered anything other than the deep psychosis it is. Why would a sane
God command us to love our enemies when he himself does not? and more
to the point, from where would the goodness and persuasion come to love
our enemies if not from him whose wondrous love compels us to love even
those who hate us?
tc Wow! Amazing! We are in total agreement so far.
Is it possible to love and hate
the same object at the same time? If we define hate as the antithesis
of love, I think it would be impossible to do this, because that kind
of hate would exclude love. Some hate is anti-love, that is sure, but I
think there must also be hate that is something other than this. Jesus
tells us we must "hate" our father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters, even our own life, or we cannot be his disciples
(Luk 14.26). Yet certainly we are to love them too. What kind of hate
is this? and how can we love our neighbor as ourselves and at the same
time be disciples of Christ if this hate is anti-love? We can go into
what I think this "hate" is in another post if you wish, but for the
purpose of this discussion, it is obvious that hate does not have
to exclude love. It must be possible to love one's father and mother,
etc. and hate them at the same time.
tc I think possibly Jesus was making a comparison here. Our
love for God has to be so strong that the love we have for our loved
ones would be, by comparison, puny and weak. He would not tell us to
love our enemy and hate our mother.
When we read passages that say
God hates certain people -- whether evil, or violent and wicked -- does
this mean that he does not love them? Is his hate for them anti-love,
or is it some other kind of hate that he holds for those people, maybe
something similar to the hate we are to have for ourselves, and mom and
dad? This is a fair question and we should try to answer it. We need to
be honest, though, when we do, and recognize that our answer will be
shaped by our present view of God. The way we "see" God determines the
way we think about him. This is true for me; it is true for you too.
tc I have no doubt that God would prefer to love them. His
nature is to love. Some people though, will not allow God to love
them, or maybe I should say they sneer at His love until His love in
exasperation turns to hate, and He gives them over to a reprobate
mind. God loved us first, and like all lovers, He wants that love
returned. As a matter of fact, He demands that that love be returned.
Let me tell you what I do think.
Love is the heart of God. It speaks to that eternal relationship
between the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. When we talk about
the "essence" of God, love is in the center of it. "God is
love." Everything else, whether it be his holiness or justice or
whatever, everything else that is essence must be understood only as it
relates to his love, as disclosed by the incarnate Word himself. tc
Excellent point.
There are other things that God
does that are not things which describe him in his essence.
Forgiveness, for example, is something that springs from his essence,
but is not itself of his essence. I say this because there was nothing
to forgive when all there was was God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Wrath is not of the essence of God; there was nothing to be wrathful
about until there was sin. Again, excellent. Something I had
never considered before
Just as those things that
are of the essence of God must be defined in relationship to love, so
also must those that are not. God is patient, and kind, and merciful,
and gracious, and forgiving, because he is love. These things flow
forth from his love. The same must be said about wrath. Wrath is God's
love in action against anything that sets itself to destroy his
creation or diminish his worth. Makes sense.
Hate is not of the essence of
God. When all there was was that triune relationship between the
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there was no hate (no matter how it is
defined) in God. Yet we must say that within the makeup of God (his
essence) there is potential to hate, just like there is potential to
forgive. We find in Scripture in the verse you mentioned and elsewhere
that God does hate, and he hates not only sin but in some cases (at
least) the sinner too. I believe that God has all the emotions that
He has given us
God is love; he wills
to hate. This gets back to my initial complaint. We dare not stand the
love of God side-by-side over against his hate, as if he could go one
way as willfully as the other. Whatever it means to say that God hates,
we must understand it as something that springs forth out of love. I think people can become so wicked and corrupt
that all there is, as far as their works, is evil. They have so sold
themselves out to sin that they have become totally depraved (cf. Rom
1. 28-32). These are those whom God hates. That said, I do not believe
that he ever stops loving them. He is not indifferent. It is because he
loves them that he hates them. That last line does not compute for me.
To me, love/hate is like start/stop or forward/reverse. You can do one
followed by the other, sometimes rather quickly, but I cannot picture
both at the same time.
This we must return to over and
over again: whatever the sin that ensnares these people, Christ carried
it with him to the cross. For their sins he died. And when he died,
they died. And when he rose again, they too rose with him. They are
included in him, just like you are and I am; this because God so loves
them. Bill, you just totally lost me. Maybe you could say it some
other way that is more understandable. I see those who are wicked, as
I once was, nowhere near the cross, not covered by the redeeming
blood. That is why they are called lost.
"And you He made alive,
who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked
according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the
power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among
whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in
mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when
we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by
grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and
made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ
Jesus," (Eph 2.1-6).You might also want to tell me what you think
this means sinxe it seems to go with the above paragraph.
I will not stop
thinking about your question, Terry. The truth is, it has haunted me
for a long time. But I am not comfortable going any further right now.
I hope I have given you enough to begin to apprehend where I am coming
from.
I really appreciate the effort you have gone to in order to
answer my query. It tells me that we are not always at opposite ends
of the spectrum, and there is room to learn from one another. I was
thinking that since you had not responded, that you considered my
question to be insincere. Terry
Bill
====================================================================================
I wish I could say I did Bill. I fully understand that God was
merciful to us when we were lost. I understand that I was not looking
for Him. He made the first move, making Himself known to me. I also
understand that it took commitment on my part to become part of the
family. It was not a done deal from day one, or from the day Jesus
died on the cross, or the day He rose from the grave. Right now it is
a work in progress, and someday, if I endure, I will live eternally
with my Lord. I plan on enduring to the end, because He who began a
good work in me is able to keep me 'til that day. Not my power, but
His, and not limited to me, but to whosoever will.
Are we anywhere close to agreement?
Terry
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