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jt: My question is why are they
dead?
Now I am convinced. You do not understand metaphor.
A metaphor is a figure of speech, Judy, in which on object is liked to
another by speaking of it as if it were that other
object. If I say "you are riding a dead horse here." I do not mean you have
really mounted a dead horse, that you're whooping and kicking away; I mean your
argument is going nowhere; it's pointless and you need to dismount
(metaphorically, of course). When Paul writes to living people, or when Jesus
speaks of living people, and calls them dead, he does not mean they are really
dead -- they are obviously alive! -- he means they are living as if
they were dead; they are helpless to do anything to bring about their own
salvation. That is the wonderful point that Paul is making in Eph 2. It was
while humans were as it were dead and helpless in trespasses
that God "made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been
saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly
places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). Why were they dead? Because of their sin;
because there was no way to bridge the gap between humanity and God until the
sin problem was confronted and defeated. This is what Christ did. This is the
Gospel.
jt: Ephesians is written post
Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and seated
in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what you've been telling
us.
Judy, read this and tell me who you think is
telling you this: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive
together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together,
and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6).
It was at Calvary that God did this. It was there
that Christ was raised from the dead. And when he ascended we ascended.
I don't know if this is any comfort to you, Judy,
but many of the people to whom Paul was writing were alive when Calvary
took place. He is writing to them about an event that took place in their or
their parent's lifetime. They looked at Calvary as very much a real
space-time event, a pivotal point in human history, a point that happened in
their own lifetime. We tend to think the gap into the equation. We think this
has to happen to us in our lifetime. That is a RC idea, just keep good ol' Jesus
on the cross. Crucify him over and over again. No, the work of salvation is
finished. Christ did it once for all! We participate in it, but we do nothing to
cause it.
jt: BTW what do you mean by "causal
agent?"
I mean that our salvation was caused by God in
Christ. He is the causal agent, not our faith (or anything else you tack onto
it). If you want the complete context, it's in the archives.
Judy, I don't really think we're getting anywhere
with this. Your mind is set. Hell will freeze over before you change it. I think
it's probably time for us to part company on this one and go on the something
else.
How is Jenna doing. I am so sorry she is going
through this terrible struggle. She is very much a part of our prayer
life.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Metaphorically
speaking vs Spiritual Reality
Judy
writes: They might be biologically alive but so far as God is concerned
they are dead in trespasses and sin just as you recently posted in Ephesians
2:1-3, you can't have it both ways. Doubleminded men are unstable in all
their ways and they don't receive anything from the Lord and that includes
salvation (according to His Word throught James
not mine) judyt
Judy, please do not
assume that I meant anything more than, metaphorically
speaking, they are dead and can do nothing to advance their own
salvation. I do hope that you were not implying that I am a "doubleminded"
man. To put any questions to rest, I would like to include a paragraph I
wrote to David M. back on the 23rd of May.
Ephesians is written post
Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and
seated in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what you've
been telling us. Sin doesn't get into heaven and the ones Paul
describes in Ephesians 2:1-3 were dead in trespass and sin; sin does not go
anywhere until it is repented of. Repentance without regret means that we
understand and stop participating.
Allow me to answer your
question first and to then share a few words as to my understanding of faith
and its role in the Christian life. No, I do not believe that faith is the
causative agent that puts us into Christ and brings about the new birth
within us. Faith is the means through which we
participation with the Causal Agent who gave us new birth in his
resurrection: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive
together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up
together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
(Eph. 2.5-6).
jt: There, you've said it
again. BTW what do you mean by "causal agent?"
This he did without our
commitment, without our say. We were dead
(metaphorically speaking) and without faith, unable to participate. Yet God raised us up and made us alive in Christ Jesus, in his resurrection.
This is the new birth, born from above, "born again." I believe,
not in order to be born again, but because I am born
again. I believe because I am alive and able to believe, to respond to and
participate in the work of the Holy Spirit in my life.
jt: Being dead in trespasses and
sin is literal Bill - it means we were deceived by the god of this world
system and serving our father the devil. At least this is how God sees
it and it is how the Holy Spirit who inspires all scripture has written it
in His Word. judyt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 2:03
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] God Hates
There is
Bill,
And I don't need to keep
looking because I see it already from Genesis to Revelation. You
are the one who has the problem
seeing but I don't believe
that anything I could say would make one bit of difference so long as you
are determined to
cling to this all
encompassing
incarnational doctrine which incidentally makes the narrow way a whole lot
broader. judyt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
It would seem, Judy, if your concept of
spiritual death is as all-pervading as you claim it is, there would be
some reference to it in Scripture.
Keep looking . . .
jt: But Jesus refers to
the person as dead, not his works. In Luke
9:60 AMP it reads "Allow the dead to bury their own dead" and Matt 8:22
says "Follow Me, and leave the dead (in sin) to
bury their own dead. And after He got into the boat, His disciples
followed Him. This does not appear to refer to dead works nor does it
appear to be a 'metaphor' so far as I can see.
Yes, Judy, the AMP is a wonderful resource; however, it
is also a theological resource. The amplifications are interpretive. Do
you not know that?
jt: Of course I am
aware but they have not changed the meaning in this instance at
least, they add words that express the though.
By the way, I agree with the AMP to a point. When people
turn away from Jesus to "idols (in your words), whatever they be, they are
dead in sin, metaphorically speaking; i.e., they are alive but do not to
live as such because they refuse to acknowledge the justification of
life, Jesus Christ.
jt: They might be
biologically alive but so far as God is concerned they are dead in
trespasses and sin just as you recently posted in Ephesians 2:1-3, you
can't have it both ways. Doubleminded men are unstable in all their ways
and they don't receive anything from the Lord and that includes salvation
(according to His Word
throught James not mine) judyt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 12:22
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] God
Hates
Judy wrote: This
concept is all through the Bible Bill, from Genesis on. A&E
died the day they ate from the forbidden tree but they did not die
physically that day they died spiritually (Genesis 2:17) - (the serpent
deceived Eve with an exact contradiction of the Word of God Genesis
3:4). There are two kinds of wisdom. The wisdom or Word of God
brings life; the lie or wisdom from the father of lies produces
spiritual death in a person's life. Life and
death are spiritual conditions that lead to eternal life or
eternal death. The mouth speaks from the abundance that fills the
heart so both are evident by the power of the tongue (Proverbs
18:21) and we are speaking one or the other continually ie: 'A
man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth (Proverbs
12:14). By your words you are either justified or condemned
(Matthew 12:37). An evil man is snared by the transgression of his lips
(Proverbs 12:13). The one holding the power of death is the devil
(Hebrews 2:14) and Jesus told the apostle Paul he was "sending him to
the Gentiles (us) to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness
to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive
forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by
faith that is in Me"
BT: Perhaps you misunderstood my
request, Judy. The challenge to you was to provide for me
explicit language; that is, show me in Scripture
where the text uses the language of "spiritual death" or "spiritually
dead" or "died spiritually," something like that, that
could substantiate your claim. I am familiar with the Text. I
don't think it's there.
jt: It's there Bill -
1 Tim 5:6 teaches that "she who lives in pleasure and self gratification
- giving herself up to luxury and self indulgence - is dead even while
she still lives" In Luke 15:24 the father says of his prodigal son
"this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is
found!" We know the son did not die physically but he was living
in sin out in the pigpen with the pigs. Are these examples
explicit enough? Then there is the Church at Sardis in Rev 3:1 to
whom Jesus says "I know your record and what you are doing; you are
supposed to be alive but (in reality) you are dead"
(AMP)
BT: Here's what I think about
Genesis and the promise that on the day they eat of it they shall surely
die. There was death that day. There was also the introduction of the
Gospel. Instead of pulling his life-support from Adam and Woman God
sacrificed a substitute. He covered them in the fatty portions of a
lamb, the Lamb slain from the beginning. In doing this, he
sealed on that day the vicarious death of his Son, in their place
and on their behalf. And so, as you see, one does not need to interpose a
foreign concept into the text to make it make sense.
jt: Yes Bill
there was a sacrifice. God killed an animal in Genesis 3:21 so that
A&E could cover their nakedness but it was not the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world. Not yet.
Yours is an a priori,
Judy. You have heard this language so many times, for so long, that
it is now a given in your reading of Scripture. You
supply it, in other words, but the words themselves are not their. It is
something you bring with you to your reading of the text, just as you
did when you wrote "let the (spiritually) dead bury
their own dead."
jt: If, as you
claim Bill, my understanding is wrong and these words are not there
- then what is your explanation for this verse. Do you actually
believe that physically dead people can bury other physically dead
people? If so how?
The challenge is still open. . .
jt: I've met the
challenge more than once Bill but I don't expect you to accept my
explanation because your all encompassing incarnational doctrine hath
blinded your eyes.
Judy wrote: I've
never ever read Augustine, Greek or any other philosophy, or religious
Manichaeism Bill, neither do I approve of any type of Calvinism.
Neither did you need to to have
your thinking influenced by these guys. All you needed to do was breath.
The rest is supplied by people around you, when you go to church,
for example, or when you went to school, or when you turn on your radio
or television, or fire up your computer. Lance shared a really neat
quote about how the philosophies of the mountain top flow down the
streams to water the plants in the valley. We get theology and
philosophy whether we seek it out or not. In many ways people are more
susceptible and vulnerable to bad thinking when they eschew these things
than they would be if they were to educate themselves to their
subtleties. Maybe Lance could post this parable again to refresh your
memory.
jt: If what you claim
above is so Bill/Lance - then the devil is much more powerful than the
Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead us into all Truth and the spirit
of error or lawlessness is greater than God and his
righteousness.
jt: I see the
juxtaposition between darkness and light, life and death, good and evil
all through scripture
Ah yes, and so do
I.
jt: and I have no
idea what you are speaking of when you refer to "holistic
personhood" - could you explain further please?
I am talking about the thought that
a person could be physically alive but spiritually dead. The Hebrew mind
did not have the Greek idea that body and soul or spirit could be
separated, parts being alive while others are dead. The Hebrew view
of personhood is that humans are non-reducible wholes. There is no
dualism there.
jt: I don't know
about Hebrew minds or Greek minds Bill but I do know that the mind of
Christ sees man as a triune being made up of spirit, soul, and
body.
Judy wrote: How do
you read Matt 8:21 and Luke 9:59,60?
I thought I had already answered
that. This is a metaphor: "Let the dead bury their own dead," but
you "follow me." Everything that people do that is given priority over
following Jesus is as it were dead works.
jt: But Jesus refers
to the person as dead, not his works. In
Luke 9:60 AMP it reads "Allow the dead to bury their own dead" and Matt
8:22 says "Follow Me, and leave the dead (in
sin) to bury their own dead. And after He got into the boat, His
disciples followed Him. This does not appear to refer to dead works nor
does it appear to be a 'metaphor' so far as I can
see.
When we think we have something
really important to do that is more important than what Jesus is
commanding us to do, our acts are futile. Metaphorically speaking, they
are as dead as the dead person awaiting burial. Again I ask you, why not
let this first reference to "dead" be a metaphor for the futility of
human activities when those activities are given status of priority
over following Jesus?
jt: Anything given
status of priority over following Jesus is an idol but that is another
subject entirely.
Grace and
Peace,
Judy
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