----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:00
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Metaphorically
speaking vs Spiritual Reality
jt: My question is why are they
dead?
Now I am convinced. You do not understand
metaphor. A metaphor is a figure of speech, Judy, in which on object is
liked to another by speaking of it as if it
were that other object. If I say "you are riding a dead horse
here." I do not mean you have really mounted a dead horse, that you're
whooping and kicking away; I mean your argument is going nowhere; it's
pointless and you need to dismount (metaphorically, of
course).
jt: Thank you for the mini
lesson Bill but I do understand the meaning of both similitude and metaphor. I
just don't agree that scripture is as full of them as you appear to
believe.
BT: When Paul writes to living people, or
when Jesus speaks of living people, and calls them dead, he does not mean they
are really dead -- they are obviously alive! -- he means they are
living as if they were dead; they are helpless to do anything to bring about
their own salvation.
jt: No what both Jesus and
Paul mean is that they are spiritually dead, IOW they have been deceived and
they are walking in darkness. It is possible to be biologically/physically
alive and ATST spiritually dead. In fact before spiritual death became a
part of the first two human beings it was impossible to die
physically.
That is the wonderful point that Paul is making
in Eph 2. It was while humans were as it were dead and
helpless in trespasses that God "made us alive together with Christ (by
grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit
together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). Why were they
dead? Because of their sin; because there was no way to bridge the gap between
humanity and God until the sin problem was confronted and defeated. This is
what Christ did. This is the Gospel.
jt: You have gone way, way
past what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2 Bill. He says to the Church at
Ephesus in Vs.1 "You hath He quickened" who WERE dead in trespasses and
sin." The idea being that there had been some repentance and these people are
now in the process of being sanctified. Yes Jesus made the way for us to
be reconciled with the Father and yes He defeated principalities and powers
and He made a show of them openly. However, we still have to deal with
the sin that is in our own lives, He did not do this for us at Calvary.
We MUST learn to discern between good and evil because before God we are
responsible for our own choices.
jt: Ephesians is written post
Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and
seated in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what you've
been telling us.
BT: Judy, read this and tell me who you think is
telling you this: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive
together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up
together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
(Eph. 2.5-6). It was at Calvary that God did
this. It was there that Christ was raised from the dead. And when he ascended
we ascended.
jt: The apostle is
speaking to the Church at Ephesus by faith and this is a faith reality.
However, you
are teaching Positional Truth Bill and I've been there and done
that [....] I once had a plaque on my wall that a friend gave
me which read "keep looking down, you're seated with Christ in the heavenlies" It all
sounds very high and wonderful but we need to be more concerned with walking
in repentance and sanctification - or the devil will eat us for
lunch. We must have more balance and context and less metaphor
Freedom should be a present reality.
BT: I don't know if this is any comfort to you,
Judy, but many of the people to whom Paul was writing were alive when
Calvary took place. He is writing to them about an event that took place in
their or their parent's lifetime. They looked at Calvary as very
much a real space-time event, a pivotal point in human history, a
point that happened in their own lifetime. We tend to think the gap into the
equation. We think this has to happen to us in our lifetime. That is a RC
idea, just keep good ol' Jesus on the cross. Crucify him over and over again.
No, the work of salvation is finished. Christ did it once for all! We
participate in it, but we do nothing to cause
it.
jt: I'm not hung up on who
causes salvation or WHEN Calvary happened Bill. I'm a lot more concerned with
WHY. My belief is that Jesus was as a lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of
the world - so God's Old Covenant saints (the prophets)looked fwd (even if
they didn't know what they were looking for) just as we look back. - The
sacrificial system under the Law of Moses was to teach us through all of that
blood and gore the destructiveness and abominable nature of sin before a holy
God. Yes Jesus paid
the price for our reconciliation with God by being the spotless lamb who
became propitiation for our sin and now it is time to do our part by
parting company with it (sin). This is called "repentance without
regret" Salvation is a process and sanctification is a second work of
grace - none of it is a done deal other than by faith. When we are
quickened and sealed with the Holy Spirit it is just the beginning.. Yes
it is impossible without Him and He gets all the glory but we don't
endure to the end unless we take responsibility for our own stuff and
fulfil our part of the Covenant. Do you have a problem with any of
this?
judyt
