[TruthTalk] Metaphorically speaking vs Spiritual Reality

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: My question is why are they dead?    Now I am convinced. You do not understand metaphor. A metaphor is a figure of speech, Judy, in which on object is liked to another by speaking of it as if it were that other object. If I say "you are riding a dead horse here." I do not mean you have really mounted a dead horse, that you're whooping and kicking away; I mean your argument is going nowhere; it's pointless and you need to dismount (metaphorically, of course).   jt: Thank you for the mini lesson Bill but I do understand the meaning of both similitude and metaphor. I just don't agree that scripture is as full of them as you appear to believe.   BT:  When Paul writes to living people, or when Jesus speaks of living people, and calls them dead, he does not mean they are really dead -- they are obviously alive! -- he means they are living as if they were dead; they are helpless to do anything to bring about their own salvation.   jt: No what both Jesus and Paul mean is that they are spiritually dead, IOW they have been deceived and they are walking in darkness. It is possible to be biologically/physically alive and ATST spiritually dead.  In fact before spiritual death became a part of the first two human beings it was impossible to die physically.   That is the wonderful point that Paul is making in Eph 2. It was while humans were as it were dead and helpless in trespasses that God "made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). Why were they dead? Because of their sin; because there was no way to bridge the gap between humanity and God until the sin problem was confronted and defeated. This is what Christ did. This is the Gospel.   jt: You have gone way, way past what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2 Bill.  He says to the Church at Ephesus in Vs.1 "You hath He quickened" who WERE dead in trespasses and sin." The idea being that there had been some repentance and these people are now in the process of being sanctified.  Yes Jesus made the way for us to be reconciled with the Father and yes He defeated principalities and powers and He made a show of them openly.  However, we still have to deal with the sin that is in our own lives, He did not do this for us at Calvary.  We MUST learn to discern between good and evil because before God we are responsible for our own choices.   jt: Ephesians is written post Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and seated in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what you've been telling us.    BT: Judy, read this and tell me who you think is telling you this: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). It was at Calvary that God did this. It was there that Christ was raised from the dead. And when he ascended we ascended.   jt:  The apostle is speaking to the Church at Ephesus by faith and this is a faith reality. However, you are teaching Positional Truth Bill and I've been there and done that [....]  I once had a plaque on my wall that a friend gave me which read "keep looking down, you're seated with Christ in the heavenlies" It all sounds very high and wonderful but we need to be more concerned with walking in repentance and sanctification - or the devil will eat us for lunch.  We must have more balance and context and less metaphor Freedom should be a present reality.   BT: I don't know if this is any comfort to you, Judy, but many of the people to whom Paul was writing were alive when Calvary took place. He is writing to them about an event that took place in their or their parent's lifetime. They looked at Calvary as very much a real space-time event, a pivotal point in human history, a point that happened in their own lifetime. We tend to think the gap into the equation. We think this has to happen to us in our lifetime. That is a RC idea, just keep good ol' Jesus on the cross. Crucify him over and over again. No, the work of salvation is finished. Christ did it once for all! We participate in it, but we do nothing to cause it.      jt: I'm not hung up on who causes salvation or WHEN Calvary happened Bill. I'm a lot more concerned with WHY. My belief is that Jesus was as a lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world - so God's Old Covenant saints (the prophets)looked fwd (even if they didn't know what they were looking for) just as we look back. - The sacrificial system under the Law of Moses was to teach us through all of that blood and gore the destructiveness and abominable nature of sin before a holy God.  Yes Jesus paid the price for our reconciliation with God by being the spotless lamb who became propitiation for our sin and now it is time to do our part by parting company with it (sin).  This is called "repentance without regret"  Salvation is a process and sanctification is a second work of grace - none of it is a done deal other than by faith.  When we are quickened and sealed with the Holy Spirit it is just the  beginning.. Yes it is impossible without Him and He gets all the glory but we don't endure to the end unless we take responsibility for our own stuff and fulfil our part of the Covenant. Do you have a problem with any of this?   judyt