I think you are basically correct, Terry, as usual. Johns compassion has caused him to want to design a "more compassionate God" who does not reject sin or sinners. He ignores the fact that this God who does not seem compassionate enough for him has in fact paid the ultimate price. Having done that, He does not bend the laws of the universe for those who reject His grace and thus do not receive His empowerment to overcome what enslaves them. Izzy
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 7:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Some things we might consider. >John: What's wrong with accepting the fact that "righteousness" is a gift bestowed upon us, not something that is earned through obdience (Romans 4) > >judyt: Because this is not entirely true, we can't make a doctrine from just one scripture because scripture interprets scripture and scripture teaches differently ie: "Little children let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil for the devil has sinned from the beginning" 1 John 3:7,8. > > ========================================================= I have been following this thread with more than the usual amount of interest. John has offered some explanations of what the scripture says that are hard to argue with. On the other hand, Judy has offered the above verse that is impossible to argue with. How can both Christians come to such divergent views? Bias has to be one reason, but it obviously involves more than that. I do not have all the answers and would appreciate anyone's thinking on this, but I do think that I have a handle on one thing that causes much division. That is how we define sin. What mental picture do we get when we hear that word? What is our attitude concerning it, not just in our own lives, but in the lives of others? I suspect that John's mental picture would be far different from Judy's or Izzy's or mine, simply because he has more intimate contact with more sinners over more time than we do. I also suspect that since he is dealing with people, who though they are sinners, are not comfortable with their sin and are seeking help, that he sees them more lovingly than we do. John's ministry is trying to guide these reluctant sinners. He cares about them, where the rest of us do not have that personal relationship with those he works with. We simply see with a detached eye that if they sin, they are sinners, while John has great compassion for these people and sees something greater, some potential on their part to improve if given time. (When I use the words sin or sinner, I am talking about a continuous pattern, not an occasional slip. We all slip.) The original thought when this discussion began seemed to me to be "Can a person be saved and continue in a pattern of sin until he or she overcomes that sin ?" John's view is apparently yes. Judy's is apparently no. Though I have great respect for my brother John, I will have to go with Judy on this one, for the following reasons: 1. Salvation requires forgiveness. Forgiveness requires repentance. Repentance requires you to stop doing it your way and start doing it God's way. John's experience may show that with counselling and prayer and time that the addict can stop being an addict. This may affect his opinion or his commentary. He has seen the results of this method. It works. Just one problem with this line of thought. If you allow the addict to continue in his addiction after being saved, then you must extend the same courtesy to the wife beater, the child molester, and the serial killer. Give them time and they will stop. 2. The second thing that strikes me about this is that we no longer consider the demons. Unclean spirits are just as real as the Holy Spirit. When we think of addiction, be it to drugs or alcohol or food, we tend to look at this as a personal weakness and forget that demons are hard at work to destroy our life. Anyone who is addicted is controlled by demons. Not by the Holy Spirit, but by an unclean spirit. Since the body of the believer is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it should be obvious that an unclean spirit can not live in the same dwelling. If the Holy Spirit has moved in, the unclean spirit has moved out. Those are my thoughts on this beautiful Sunday morning. There are a whole bunch of maybes and possiblys in this post. simply because I am not certain that I have accurately apprehended what John and Judy and Izzy are saying. In fact, I am the only one on the list that I fully understand. Tell me what you think. Terry > > > > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
