John writes:
It is hard to believe just how far off the biblical message you are. Chapter 7 actually ends with 8:1 -- there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ !! "Therefore" is a word that is saying "based upon what I have said before ..." It is a word that looks back. 8:1 is tied to 7:25. What Paul says afterwards effects the discussion but 8:1 has importance because of 7:25.
It is hard to believe just how far off the biblical message you are. Chapter 7 actually ends with 8:1 -- there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ !! "Therefore" is a word that is saying "based upon what I have said before ..." It is a word that looks back. 8:1 is tied to 7:25. What Paul says afterwards effects the discussion but 8:1 has importance because of 7:25.
judyt:
No
John Romans 8:1 is tied to Romans 8:2 which reads "there is therefore
now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit
and not after the flesh" and this is the condition for their being no
condemnation. There is a lot of condemnation for those walking after the flesh
because their hearts condemn them before God (unless they are reprobate to begin
with).
John: Your perfectionist theology forces you to ignore the conclusion Paul draws, not just for himself as you claim but for us all, deny that 7:25 has anything to do with us today in spite of the fact that this is exactly what it says, misapply 8:5 and then continue to believe and espouse that God has given you this interpretation.
John: Your perfectionist theology forces you to ignore the conclusion Paul draws, not just for himself as you claim but for us all, deny that 7:25 has anything to do with us today in spite of the fact that this is exactly what it says, misapply 8:5 and then continue to believe and espouse that God has given you this interpretation.
judyt:
Hey John, I don't understand your convoluted theology and
reasoning but I am not ignoring any passage of scripture and I have no reason to
cut any of them out of my Bible. They are ALL good.....
John: Try asking yourself the question, why is Paul concerned with "condemnation" in Ro 8:1? I doubt that you have ever asked yourself this question.
John: Try asking yourself the question, why is Paul concerned with "condemnation" in Ro 8:1? I doubt that you have ever asked yourself this question.
Judyt:
I don't have to John because it is self explanatory as I spoke of above.. if people walk after the flesh which is "in sin" they are under condemnation.
I don't have to John because it is self explanatory as I spoke of above.. if people walk after the flesh which is "in sin" they are under condemnation.
John: And why is "condemnation" suddenly in the picture
when it is not referenced or even implied in the preceding context?
THE ONLY REASON FOR THE QUESTION IN 8:1 IS WHAT IS SAID IN 7:25. We
have two natures and one of them serves the law of sin and death -- that
is Paul's opinion so don't start with "false teaching" or "Kruger theology" or
whatever will be used to color the fact that you cannot over come this
point.
Judyt:
A
person who is born from above is not supposed to be walking in "two natures"
John. Sure indwelling sin is a consideration and we reckon it dead. If any
man be in Christ He is a New Creation, old things are passed away - behold all
things have become new"
John: Part of me serves the law of sin and death; this is
deserving of condemnation but, praise the Lord, there is none for those
who set their minds on things of the Spirit (8:5).
Judyt:
No
John - you not only have to be spiritually minded, you must "walk after the
spirit" for there to be no condemnation.
John: Does God want us to obey all of the
commandments? Of course he does -- but there is that pesky
second fleshly nature. And if you think Romans 7 14-25 is the
only passage that gives us this consideration, well, think again,
Misssy. Turn to Eph 4:14 - 23 - a passage in which Paul is
urging the Ephesian CHRISTIANS, THE SAVED, THE ALREADY REDEEMED, THE DISCIPLE OF
CHRIST, THOSE WHO HAVE THE SPIRIT AND ARE CLOTHED WITH "ARMOR OF
GOD," to lay aside their the old self WHICH IS BEING CORRUPTED in
accordance with the lusts of deceits,. (4:22). Think about it
---- THEY STILL HAVE THAT OLD MAN. he HAS MORE LIVES THAN A CAT BUT
HIS INFLUENCE DECREASES AS WE GROW UP IN CHRIST.
Judyt:
As
I've said over and over and over John. Salvation is a walk and the Ephesian
believers had some overcoming to do and so do we.
John: In James 4, that author tells his people to
"confess your sins, one to another that you might be heale>" WHAT
SINS?? These are the redeemed !! But they continue
to sin.
Judyt:
The above verse has to do with physical healing although you and
some others have balked at the tie between sin, sickness, and the iniquities of
the fathers. I have no problems with this.
John: You asked "why separate sin into different venues" or words to that effect -- "sin is sin" you say. Absolute nonsense.. The is a sin we commit -- the biblical writers believe that we do not have to commit sin. But there is sin that define us as people. Pride, conceit, bigotry, arrogance, boastfulness, selfishness and the like.
Judyt:
I don't believe any of us should be defined by the above. We need to
learn how to separate ourselves and others from this sin and see ourselves as
God created us from the foundation of the world. The above are what we have been
redeemed from in Christ and in Him there is no
unrighteousness.
John: These sins exist in all of us (Ro 2:1) and only the most
biased of students would deny that reality.
Judyt:
They may in the beginning but these are the things we must discern and
depart from because "everyone who names the name of the Lord must turn away from
unrighteousness" (1 Tim 2:19) and as those who are now alive from the dead we
must offer our bodies to God as weapons for righteousness (Romans 6:13)
John: Another sin reality is that of "omission." When we know
to do something and do it not.
Judyt:
Knowing what is right and not doing it is dealing with sin a per 1 Tim
2:19 but religious people turn this into "working for God" so that they can
build religious empires for the glory of their denomination.
John: And there is a forth venue -- defiant and rebellious
sin. Sin that is not only self-serving but acted out in full
rebellion to God. II Pet 2:1-16 is a great passage for this
reality. THIS GUY IS DEAD ALREADY -- HE IS LOST. NO
CHANCE, NO WAY. Christ cannot help this person because he does not
want to be helped. Just read the passage. I
have sin all the time (I John 1:8 -- the Apostle John tells us this , not
John Smithson). But I do not rise to the level of sin described in
II Pet 2.
Judyt:
The sin of Balaam? There was no provision under the old covenant for
presumptuous sin and there is none under the new covenant either.
John: All of us on this list could do much much more for the Lord, as they say, than we do.
Judyt:
Do you mean working for the Lord or do you mean "obeying Him and doing what
He says?"
John: Our righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison to
Gods.
Judyt:
There is no comparison - because we have no righteousness....This
is used as a metaphor in Isaiah.
John: Because of these various sin applications, GOD HAS TO EXCHANGE OUR
FAITH AND CALL IT "RIGHTEOUSNESS." Have you ever asked yourself,
"Why does God have to 'reckon faith as righteousness'?"
Judyt:
No, I just accept the fact that He does and go about working to increase my
own faith by spending lots of time in God's Word...
John: You think He does just for heck of it? Or because HE HAS TO -- HE HAS NO CHOICE. He has to make the exchange because my "righteousness" on its best day does not even come close to God's expectations. How do you compare to Christ ???? -- and if you tell me "pretty good," I don't want to talk to you anymore.
Judyt:
I don't get into things too high and lofty for me to fathom John. I accept
what God says and go with that.
John: You talk about the fantasy that God comes into your life and empowers you to never sin.
John: You talk about the fantasy that God comes into your life and empowers you to never sin.
Judyt:
Did I say that? What I believe is that the Holy Spirit comes in to
lead us into all truth and that as we walk in that truth we are made free from
sin.
John: No one believes in an indwelling Christ more than
me. He gives us power to God and thus to conquer. Why
would he suddenly and miraculously end our sinning WHEN WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN
PRONOUNCED RIGHTEOUS?????
Judyt:
This is the error of Kruger et al. We HAVE NOT already been pronounced
righteous. It is when we confess our sin that He is faithful and just to
forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
The next time we sin and the Holy Spirit convicts us - we go to the throne of
grace and repeat the process. This is "walking in the light as He is in
the light" and when we do this is when we can have "fellowship one with
another"
John 7:18 tells us "there is no unrighteousness in Christ" so anyone who
claims that he has taken all of our sin and iniquity to glory with him or
that they can be "in Christ" and still be in sin and ATST called righteous
- are deceived.
Grace and Peace,
judyt
jOHN
jOHN
There are three (actually at least four) venues in which sin works its ugly will, two of which are pertinent to this discussion: historical sin and sins of character. Smoking, drinking, cursing, doping, etc are sins commited in time -- they are historical, having a beginning and an ending. Sins of character are very different. They are with us all the time and form the basis for those things we commit (the historical sin). Pride, conceit, bigotry, anger, selfishness, and the life and so we sin and continually fall short of the glory of God.
jt: Sin is sin - what purpose is there is dividing them up, we need to repent and depart from all of them. I would see your "historical" category as the iniquities of the Fathers because these kind of attitudinal things are often passed down in families. But... however they come we need to repent and finish it right now in our generation.
Where is your scripture that tells Christians to continue to repent? You turn around ONCE and begin your journey back to the Father. But you keep on confessing. You keep on praying.. You keep on believing and growing and so on -- do you need scriptures?
If anything, repentance occurs before belief. but it is never in scripture, encouraged as a repeated action the saved. Why -- because Paul is admonishing his brothers to, among other thing, not sin, to stop their anger, their bickering, their gossip and general misbehavior WHILE THEY REMAIN IN THE GRACE OF GOD AND WELL ON THEIR WAY HOME. Sin is an unwelcome part of who they so Paul is constantly admonishing them to STOP. Howwever, he does not use the word "repent' over and over again --- and why? Because sin in their lives does not mean that they have lost their way. Repentance is not necessary, understanding that repentance is a turning around, walking one way and then turning and walking another. These sinners, the ones we call "Christians," already asknowledge the righteousness of God and server him But they still have their battles and character flaws,.
John
This is why John can say that we "have sin" at any time (I Jo 1:8.) We are no better than those whom we despise. It is Christ who makes us right. It is His faith and victory that saves and this never changes. We always need Him and are always lost without Him.
jt: It is impossible to walk in love and despise others and if this is where we are walking we are not walking in anything belonging to Christ. His faith and victory only avail for us when we walk in them. John also wrote "he who sins is of the devil"
judyt
