Thank you for your quick reply. I just want
to make sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic
alone. So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to
conclusions about what others think. Often I am only creating
a parody of what they actually believe. While it may lead to a few
funny/angry posts it does tend to hinder dialogue rather than contribute
to it.
jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all
is said and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try
and understand what I'm about and I thank you for
that.
In your response you only referred to
blessing/cursing in the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would
it be safe for me to think that you include the blessing/cursing of
Deuteronomy within the concept/category of moral law, and not in the
category of Levitical law?
jt: Yes. In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases
of Egypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at
Sinai.
If this is true, would you be saying that while the
Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, moral law, which
includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us
today?
jt: Yes. In Christ we have everything necessary to
overcome and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience
which was not available under Levitical law. Though divine healing
was there for them and it is for us as well as we walk in repentance and
learn to love.
A few other questions that would help me clarify
your position:
1) Would it be true that while only
Christ could fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of
fulfilling the moral law?
jt: Yes. Only He was without spot or blemish, not having any
inheritance in the first Adam - and since the cross we are capable of
fulfilling the moral law through
Him.
2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel
from fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's
moral law?
jt: Unbelief will certainly keep us from fulfilling God's
moral law and this is a constant battle because we have an enemy who has
been around for a long time and who knows lots of tricks and God allows
us to be tested but not beyond what we are able to
bear.
3) Does the same grace of God that
enables us to fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to fulfill God's
moral law?
jt: The Levitical law has been fulfilled already in Christ
and headquarters is now at the right hand of the Father in heaven. We
are to follow the Chief Shepherd and keep His Commandments which are to
love God, ourselves, and our neighbors.
4) In another post today there was a comment
made about the 'covering of grace'. While I do not believe that we
are covered by grace (rather we are covered by the blood of Jesus
Christ), do you view grace and law as two separate categories that are
mutually exclusive? Or do you believe that grace is present in the
law?
jt: My definition of 'grace' is probably different from
what is generally accepted by much of evangelical
Christendom. I don't believe that grace is ever a cover for
sin. Rather grace is the ability by the power of the cross to
overcome sin. We overcome by grace through faith. Faith was
necessary under the law also and grace must have been there; they were
either blessed or cursed according to their choices in
life.
If in any way I am mischaracterizing your thought
here please point it out. Jonathan
jt: Not
that I can see so far Jonathan that is, if when we use a word we are
meaning the same thing.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
Hi Judy, for once I am actually
in agreement with you here. But I am left confused. On one
hand you point to Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not
have the law plus Jesus.
jt: I don't know if we are saying the
same thing Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law
which Israel did not or could not keep according to Stephen (Acts
7:43)
Jonathan: From past posts of
yours which seemed to place primacy on the law and types I would
have thought you would be more supportive of Suzy's position. It
appears that I was wrong in thinking this of you. What I am now
trying to understand is why you still think we are under the blessings
and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws of
Deuteronomy.
jt: Jesus who
overcame death and hell by the 'eternal Spirit' introduced the
Kingdom of God which is the Spirit of the Law rather than the
letter of the law which kills (not gnostic). God's nature, character and standards, have not ever
changed. What is different in this equation is the believer in Christ
who is born anew by the Spirit of God, indwelled and instructed
by the same Spirit, and is given a heart of flesh along with the
desire to love and obey our Lord and Master. So ultimately it is
God in Christ who causes us to overcome.
Please understand that I am honestly
attempting to understand you here, not to mock you. I have no
follow-up post to slam you regardless of what your answer is. I
am attempting to put together why from my perspective there seems to
be a disconnect. Basically, why are the blessings and curses not
fulfilled in Christ when the law was?
jt: The Levitical or
Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or
moral law still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last
Day. Jesus became a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I
don't have a problem with loving and obeying God according to His
Word. What I have a problem with is putting oneself under these
613 Commands because it is written that "They which be of faith
are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of
the law are under the curse; for it is written, cursed is every one
that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the
law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight
of God, it is evident; for, the just shall live by faith and the law
is not of faith; but the man that doeth them shall live in them."
(Galatians 3:9-12)
Can we separate them out so that one
still applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to
lead us to Christ but that the blessings/curses have a different
purpose and therefore are still in effect.
jt: I personally
love God's moral law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm
19:7-14 is probably my favorite scripture or at least one of them;
this and Matthew 6:33 are dear to me. judyt
By the way I think that your 'two
covenants/houses' analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
From: Susan Petersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Adhering
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There
is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we
follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow
my commandments. And there is no difference between God's commandments
and Jesus' commandments.
jt: God's condition for salvation is the
obedience that comes through faith and Jesus did not give 613
Commands Suzy. The law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us
the sinfulness of sin and to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands
plus Jesus. There are two houses or
Covenants described in Hebrews 3:
"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a
heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the
Apostle and High Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who
appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. For He has
been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the
house. For every house is built by someone, but the
builder of all things is God. Now
Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of
those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as
a Son over His house whose house we are IF
we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our
hope firm until the end" Judyt
