Lance, I am happy to research this more for you. Give me time. Meantime, I hope others have quotes, etc. for you. Iz
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag When many, if not all, on TT speak the name JESUS we understand IMMANUEL/GOD WITH US. How often did the 'founding fathers' actually speak His name? When they spoke of Him will you illustrate, with citations from their own writings, just what they meant? This is no ploy as I do not know the answers to these questions. From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: December 02, 2004 12:14 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > Lance wrote: > > I look forward to responses by both David > > and Linda on this fine distinction. > > While I agree with Bill's distinction of submission and obedience (and have > taught this identical teaching many times myself), I do not agree with his > historical analysis concerning our founding fathers. > > The problem here is building an axiom of reasoning at too high a level. For > example, the axiom being focused upon here is the one that says men must > submit to authority. This holds true much of the time, but not in all > cases. I consider this situation not too much unlike Newton's laws of > gravity. For much of the world, Newtonian theory works just fine, but when > we start dealing with subatomic particles at high speed, it stops working. > It took the theories and math of Einstein to refine our understanding to > include both aspects of the world. > > Exactly what principles lead us to the axiom of "submit unto the authority > of government"? We can see it in Romans 13 very readily: > > Romans 13:1 > (1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power > but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. > > Where did Paul derive this understanding, that the powers that be are > ordained of God? Probably from the book of Daniel. The point is that God > has ordained that powers that be. Therefore, generally speaking, to resist > the powers that be would be resisting God. Yet we know that the powers that > be eventually will be destroyed by God. This too is taught in the book of > Daniel. So while the governments we know are ordained of God, they are > faulty and in need of replacement. Generally speaking, we do not rise up > against them in rebellion because they are faulty, but rather we testify of > their faults, and we continue in patience to await their overthrow by God. > > There are times, however, when God himself moves upon nations and kings to > change the powers that are currently in place. When that happens, we cannot > say that those who rose up in opposition to the power were in disobedience > to God. One might arrive at that conclusion by considering only the higher > level axiom of "submit unto authority," but when we recognize that this > axiom is derived from the idea that the powers that be are ordained of God, > we have to admit that the successful overthrow of a power indicates that God > had ordained such an overthrow. Therefore, when the government here rose up > for independence from Great Britain, and such was resisted with force, the > outcome of the establishment of this nation as independent from the other > indicates God approved and sanctioned it. The more base axiom of "the > powers that be are ordained of God" must be given greater relevance than the > idea that "every soul must be subject unto the higher powers" because this > second axiom is derived from the first. > > Bill Taylor wrote: > > Our founding fathers did neither: they did not obey > > God, neither did they submit to their governing authorities. > > I disagree with this historical perspective. One only needs to read our > Declaration of Independence to see that our founding fathers were not > rebels, but men of submission and obedience who had the public welfare at > heart. The situation was one whereby the government here was unable to > function properly because of the greed and tyranny of their king residing in > a distant land. I do not see our founding fathers as any more rebellious > than Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. > > Bill Taylor wrote: > > Instead they rebelled under the weight of "tyranny" from England, > > by taking up arms and overthrowing their governing authorities. > > In so doing, they disobeyed God in their refusal to submit > > (sighting [sic], to the contrary, in their cry of taxation without > > representation, a political justification for their rebellion). > > Taxation without representation was only one of the many governmental crimes > outlined in our Declaration of Independence. My reading of history gives me > the perspective of men who truly understood submission and the need for > government. If the relationship could have been worked out, I believe they > would have found a way to do it. If taxation without representation was the > only problem, there would have been no revolutionary war. The bottom line > is that the existing king could not govern us properly from overseas. God > saw the misery and hurt they were causing and removed that distant > government from power over the colonies here. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
