... we can know the eternal destiny of Judas because Jesus Himself excluded him in His prayer when He told the father He hadn't lost any given Him other than the son of perdition. How do you get around that? Doesn't God's Word mean anything to you? Must everything subject itself to 'incarnationalism'
Slade wrote:
Moderator: Judy. Please cease giving people the opportunity to "turn the other cheek." Asking people "Doesn't God's Word mean anything to you?" is insulting and needs to stop. -- slade
Wow. I would have missed this question as one that would be considered insulting. Thanks for pointing that out. From my perspective, this was a very sincere, polite and inoffensive question that could be asked of Lance in his own living room while sharing the Word with one another.
Let me try and rephrase her question in a more appropriate form and see if either Lance or Slade will try to answer it.
Should our understanding always hinge first upon the Torrance philosophy of the incarnation? Does the doctrine of Christ as read in Scripture mean anything at all without this philosophical filter box? It appears to me that Lance considers all knowledge thru the filter of his theory of the incarnation of all humanity in Christ, and anything in Scripture that does not lend itself to this understanding carries little weight. If Jesus taught anything that does not fit into this esoteric understanding that he has, then it seems that Lance concludes that we simply do not understand what Jesus said. Judy poses a legitimate rhetorical question that makes a valid point. Doesn't God's Word mean anything? Just saying that Jesus doesn't mean what he says, or that "lost" does not mean "lost," is unsatisfying Clintonese language that doesn't reveal any truth whatsoever.
Slade makes a valid consideration in suggesting that Judas is not being spoken about in this passage. I don't think it is a true consideration in that there are other passages that can be brought to bear against it, but at least it is an attempt to deal with the meaning of God's Word. The problem is that Lance and others have been implicit that the passage is talking about Judas. Another problem exists in that they seem to want to just say, "you are wrong" and leave it at that. No concern seems to exist that God's Word is to be heard as written, and its understanding ought to be appreciated whether we like what we see in it or not.
Few there be that find eternal life. Many are there that find the path to destruction. This is the doctrine of Christ which seems to be blasted by the incarnational theory of humanity as expressed by Lance Muir. Am I misunderstanding you, Lance?
Luke 13:23-30
(23) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
(26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(29) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
(30) And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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