On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:13:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I just do not understand the reason for the
opposition to what Bill is saying. It is as if we cannot read the
biblical message at all.
jt: Sure we can read the biblical
message, the problem is with reading all of it in balance and in
context.
In John 17, the Son of God addresses his heavenly
Father and makes the following claims:
1) that he declares His existence as Son pre-dates his earthly ministry - v 3. Jesus was sent by God , the Son sent by the Father. The implication? That He was not created in the womb but was sent (from his heavenly existence) to this place.
1) that he declares His existence as Son pre-dates his earthly ministry - v 3. Jesus was sent by God , the Son sent by the Father. The implication? That He was not created in the womb but was sent (from his heavenly existence) to this place.
jt: Sure he was sent as the Latter day
Prophet who was foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15 and until we receive His prophetic
ministry He can not be to us a Priest and King.
2.) He pronounces that He (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) is not of this world -- his existence predates His appearance here (verse 14).
jt: Vs.14 does not address "his existence" He refers to
the "spirit" he and his disciples are of which is not "of this
world"
3.) He, the Son of God, was sent into this world -- something not possible if He had no prior existence as the Son.
3.) He, the Son of God, was sent into this world -- something not possible if He had no prior existence as the Son.
jt: He was sent as God's prophetic voice and became a
son when Mary gave birth to him.
4.) He, the Son of God praying to His Fathers, declares the Fathers love from Him before the foundations of the world.
4.) He, the Son of God praying to His Fathers, declares the Fathers love from Him before the foundations of the world.
jt: Jesus is made unto us wisdom from God which is
nothing new. He describes himself in Proverbs 8:30-36 "I together with him
was establishing them; and daily I was his delight, rejoicing always before him,
rejoicing in his habitable earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. Now
therefore hearken to me, O you children; for blessed is he who keeps my ways.
Hear instruction and be wise and do not go astray. Blessed is the man who heeds
me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my threshold. For my objectives are
the issues of life, they proclaim the will of the Lord. Those who sin against me
wrong their own soul; all those who hate me love death"
5.) The point of Luke's lineage is not to say that Adam was, the first of the creation, the son of God but that Christ -- even before his birth -- was the son of God (Luke 3:38). It is a play on words, but not just a play on words......a very powerful evangelical tool.
5.) The point of Luke's lineage is not to say that Adam was, the first of the creation, the son of God but that Christ -- even before his birth -- was the son of God (Luke 3:38). It is a play on words, but not just a play on words......a very powerful evangelical tool.
jt: No John. Adam was the firstborn of the old creation
who because of the fall are now spiritually dead and Jesus is the firstborn of
the New Creation
who God calls "His first begotten Son" (Heb 5:6, Rev
1:5) and "His only begotten Son" (John 3:16)
6) Romans 1:3-4 makes it clear that Christ is the Son of God, this is true from a fleshly perspective (read "in the flesh") because of the lineage through King David; it is true in the spirit because of the resurrection. These two circumstances are testimony to His Sonship. Neither pin point the time when He became the Son or Paul would have used only one of these circumstances. He was the Son before the foundations of the world and THAT IS WHY HE WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS RESURRECTED.
6) Romans 1:3-4 makes it clear that Christ is the Son of God, this is true from a fleshly perspective (read "in the flesh") because of the lineage through King David; it is true in the spirit because of the resurrection. These two circumstances are testimony to His Sonship. Neither pin point the time when He became the Son or Paul would have used only one of these circumstances. He was the Son before the foundations of the world and THAT IS WHY HE WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS RESURRECTED.
jt: Produce one OT Scripture that says the above in
balance and in context John.. He is:
Shiloh (Genesis 49:10)
A prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15)
A star out of Jacob, a scepter out of Israel - in
Balaam's prophecy (Numbers 24:17)
Job spoke of Him when he prophesied "I know that my
Redeemer lives" (Job 19:25-27)
A rod from the stem of Jesse, a branch out of his roots
(Isaiah 11:1)
An ensign to the people (Isaiah 11:10)
God's servant, his elect who shall bring forth judgment
to the Gentiles (Isaiah 42:1-4)
The light of the world (Isaiah 60:1-5)
The Redeemer who comes to Zion (Isaiah
59:20)
King over a kingdom that shall break in pieces all
these other kingdoms (Daniel 2:44)
The rod of God's strength coming out of Zion (Psalm
110:2)
7.) God the Father chose us in his Son, Jesus Christ, before the foundations of the world ------ the Father and the Son working from us specifically from the very beginning (Eph 1:3,4)
jt: A little twisted John. He chose us in Him before
the foundation of the world not because Jesus was the Son but because he was as
a lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
8.) Phil 2:6,7 specifically states that Christ (who happens to be the Son of God) did not count equality with God a thing to be held on to, but emptied Himself. Paul is clear -- Jesus (the Son) gave us this example.
8.) Phil 2:6,7 specifically states that Christ (who happens to be the Son of God) did not count equality with God a thing to be held on to, but emptied Himself. Paul is clear -- Jesus (the Son) gave us this example.
jt: The above verses say nothing at all about "being a
Son of God" rather it states: "Who being in the FORM of God (a Spirit), did not
consider it robbery to be equal with God; but made himself of no reputation and
took upon himself the form of a servant and was in the likeness of men. Lets not
add to his words lest we be found a liar. (Prov 30)
9) The "Son" as declared in Col 1:13 had an existence before all things (v 17).
9) The "Son" as declared in Col 1:13 had an existence before all things (v 17).
jt: The Kingdom of His Beloved Son is a post
resurrection reality which had no existence "before all
things...."
10.) The Hebrews writer declares that is was through the "Son" (Heb 1:2) that all things were created. The Son predates the virgin birth.
10.) The Hebrews writer declares that is was through the "Son" (Heb 1:2) that all things were created. The Son predates the virgin birth.
jt: No, Hebrews 1:2 says that in these latter days
God has spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things -
post Calvary you understand. He created the worlds and upholds them
by the Word of His Power .. Remember "In the beginning was the Word and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) Let's not manipulate
truth to fit our (eternal son) doctrine.
The Word of life and the Son of God are the same. What is true of one is true of the other. Because this is true, John speaks of them in the same equation, the same breath, in I John 1:1-3. Jesus is the eternal life manifested to us by the Father.
The Word of life and the Son of God are the same. What is true of one is true of the other. Because this is true, John speaks of them in the same equation, the same breath, in I John 1:1-3. Jesus is the eternal life manifested to us by the Father.
jt: Only after the incarnation and
resurrection and John is not speaking of them in the same breath... Neither
does Bill see them as the same thing, he does not see God's Word as a living
thing - yesterday said " To deny the eternal Sonship
of Christ and to set in his place a rationally-static "Word" doctrine, is to
depersonalize the relationship most central to the heart of God: the Father-Son
relationship" .
11.) In I John 4:2, that which we are to confess is that Jesus came in the flesh. That can only mean that he predated the flesh. He did not have existence as the Son, Jesus, at His birth. Rather, His birth marked His coming in the flesh. Because He existed before the flesh, he was able to come in the flesh. John
11.) In I John 4:2, that which we are to confess is that Jesus came in the flesh. That can only mean that he predated the flesh. He did not have existence as the Son, Jesus, at His birth. Rather, His birth marked His coming in the flesh. Because He existed before the flesh, he was able to come in the flesh. John
jt: No 1 John 4:2 means that he came in a "flesh
body" - It does not mean that he was the "eternal Son" before God provided a
flesh body; actually this scripture was written to counteract
the peculiar gnostic doctrine that was around in that
day.
