On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:52:52 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:44:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
jt: I have no hidden meanings Lance, it is recorded in the book of Genesis and the results are evident all through the
In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:44:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
jt: I have no hidden meanings Lance, it is recorded in the book of Genesis and the results are evident all through the
remaining 65 books. Without
a fall the need for a redemption would be non existent.
jd writes: An interesting observation. It appears that Adam and his lovely, had the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all.
jt: Not so A&E were created as adults in the image of God who does not have the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all. \Eve was deceived by listening and responding to the wrong voice; Adam chose the lovely over God.
Actually, the biblical message says that God created mankind in this "image"
jd writes: An interesting observation. It appears that Adam and his lovely, had the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all.
jt: Not so A&E were created as adults in the image of God who does not have the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all. \Eve was deceived by listening and responding to the wrong voice; Adam chose the lovely over God.
Actually, the biblical message says that God created mankind in this "image"
jt: Where does it say that?
He did create A&E in his image. After the fall they were no longer
reflecting God's image. They were full of shame and fear and needed a covering.
Not long after this we see the first murder. Seth is the one the godly line
proceeds through and Seth was made in the image of Adam rather than God. By one
man sin entered the world and death through sin. [Romans 5:12]
jd: What we see as the "fall" (a nonbiblical term, by the way) may be nothing more than what happened to people who were created to be just like the rest of mankind (except for that navel thingy) after the first legal "violation."
jt: I see you also have a good imagination John. The words fall, falling, and fallen are all over the Bible but since you don't like it, how about the word transgression"?
jd: Would you take the time, Judy, to given me a scripture?
jt: "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you,
so that He will not hear".[Isaiah 59:2]
"If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not
hear me" [Psalm 66:18]
jd: If we could define "before the fall," we might have more agreement about "after the fall."
jt: How about "before Adams transgression" when A&E were in God's image and likeness?
jd: We "die in Adam" because we have all sinned -- correct?
jt: Yes the wages of sin are death [Romans
6:23]; but to be carnally minded is also death [Romans 8:6] so take your
pick.
jd: I have to date, seen no biblical justification for the "fall."
jt: No fall? Was God unjust to curse both A&E and exclude them from His garden and the Tree of Life?
jd:
These are your words, not
mine -- but even ti this were true, He made up for it in the
Christ Event, didn't he?
jt: I'm not sure what you have in mind John; the Christ
event also deals with death, remember we are baptized into his
death
so that we may be raised by His
life, but it's not anything that happens by osmosis just because we are in the
world...
jd: Are we incomplete?
jt: Of course - those outside of Christ are all dead while they live, spiritually dead.
jd: Have you completed the race or are you still in pursuit of that prize? Is God done with you?
jt: According to scripture
Christ is the prize and if we win the prize we gain Him. But it's impossible to
win if one is not in the race to start with.
jd: Do we all have need for further definition as humans and (a need) for a deeper walk with God? Absolutely.
jt: Especially those who are not in any kind of walk with God to begin with [there is just ONE way to the Father]
jd: So you agree with my statement above ending with "Absolutely." ????
jt: I'm not sure why the word
"absolutely" belongs there.
jd: I believe that Adam and the Seventh Rib were never created as an end of a creation event.
jt: This is conjecture and can only ever be speculation.
jd: You don't think Christ's sacrifice reached back for
those in olden times?
jt: I believe the righteous dead will be raised in
Him. Not every dead person, only the "righteous" which are the ones He
claims.
jd: This First Couple of Love were completed in the
Incarnation.
jt: Or the resurrection, since they were possibly some of the spirits who rose with him out of Paradise/Abraham's bosom; however
they were not incomplete before the fall which you deny.
jd: And where do you find biblical reason for this statment?
jt: Or the resurrection, since they were possibly some of the spirits who rose with him out of Paradise/Abraham's bosom; however
they were not incomplete before the fall which you deny.
jd: And where do you find biblical reason for this statment?
jt: In the book of Genesis, the
whole scene in the garden and God's cursing them putting them out and guarding
the tree of life.
jd: I would appreciate someone on this forum demonstrating otherwise, in scripture. Some of you know that I will listen.
jt: Been doing this and you haven't listened so far.
jd: Can one listen with consideration and honesty without agreeing? John
jt: I think consideration and
civility are a plus. judyt
