Re: [TruthTalk] Whatever It Would Take

[Bill Taylor]

No, not suggesting that at all.  God did not plan for the fall.  Had He done so, there would have been no sin on Adam's part because, being compelled to follow the plan, he would have had no free will to sin.  Adam made his own choice to disobey God, and as his heirs, we inherit the punishment (death) for that sin that Adam willingly committed. Though either term could accurately be used, I simply think of my Savior more as my redeemer than as an adopter.  I wondered how you saw it.  I believe that the fall was not necessary for adoption, but a redeemer was necessary because of the fall. Terry   This sounds really good to me, Terry. Since we do live on the side of Adam's fall, it is always somewhat speculative to talk about what it may have been like had he not rebelled. I understand Paul to be saying that we were predestined to adoption by Christ, and this before the world was created; in other words, long before the fall. I may be going out on a limb with this, but adoption cannot necessitate a fall without indicting God in the process. Adoption has to have been possible apart from the fall, or God is guilty of making us the sinful creatures we have become contra the fall. And so, I agree with you: if the fall had to happen, then Adam is at most only partly responsible for his disobedience.    And since we live on this side of the fall, I also agree with you that "Redeemer" is certainly what our Savior is, and I think it quite appropriate to think of him in those terms.   Good stuff,   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Whatever It Would Take Bill Taylor wrote: What if we use the word "redeemed" instead of the word "adopted"?  In your opinion, would that make a difference? Terry   Hi Terry,   Yes, I do think it would make a difference if we use the word redeem instead of adoption. But I'm not sure why you are asking this question; I think I am probably misunderstanding your intent. Redeemed is what we are as a result of what Jesus has done in our place and on our behalf. But Redemption comes only as a result of the fall. I do not think we would need to have been redeemed were it not for sin and death, both having been introduced by the fall.   Are you suggesting that God created us in order that he might redeem us?   Help!   Bill  =================================================