jt: My question is how are you so
sure? Scripture does not address where babies/children go to validate the
above. Shouldn't we be silent where the scripture is silent?
The Scriptures are not silent, Judy, e.g. "When Jesus saw this, he was
indignant. He said to them, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not
hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these'";
jt: I note you use the NIV here, the
word "belongs" is not in the KJV. This incident is recorded in Matt 19:14,
Mark 10:14, and Luke 18:16. In the KJV Jesus says "Suffer little
children and forbid them not to come unto me for of such is the kingdom of
heaven. In Mark 10:15 Jesus explains a litle more and says "Verily I say
unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein." and Luke records
that Jesus went on to say "Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive
the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." So...
his focus is upon their openness and trust.
"for God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting
their trespasses against them"; "And the gift is not like that which came
through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense
resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses
resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned
through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the
gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in
condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to
all men, resulting in justification of life" (Mark 10.14; 2Cor
5.19; Rom 5.16-18).
jt: All of the above is true but does
not stand alone. We must come to Him if we are to have life and there are
still all of those "ifs, ands, and buts" - I know the NIV has cut the second
part of Romans 8:2 out but if we fail to walk after the Spirit, condemnation
remains because our old carnal flesh nature has been
judged.
jt: Well Proverbs tells us that God's wisdom dances
in the streets saying "come in here" and we know from Romans that
God gives everyone a conscience wherein dwells a
natural awareness that there is a God
only most prefer the darkness they are living in and few search for Him,
or if they do begin to search the devil is quick to come up with
carnal substitutes that appeal to the flesh.
I do not disagree with you here, Judy. As I said, I am familiar with
the passages at issue in this conversation; however, I believe
it takes more than a vague awareness of a distant God to send people to
hell in the face of the justifying work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
jt: Vague awareness of a distant
God? I'm talking about the actual Words of the Living
God.
jt: His children are
ONLY those already in
Christ
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that
are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for
Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist"
(Col 1.15-17).
jt: Yes Bill He did create the worlds and He
still holds them together by the Word of His Power but when He created the
worlds at the beginning He was the second member of the Godhead known as
God the Word and he did not become the firstborn over all creation (the New
Creation) until the resurrection when God received His sacrifice. Adam
was the firstborn of the old creation - the one that was judged at the cross
and is in the process of passing away as we speak.
jt: If I were presented with both Bill and
were still in darkness and ignorance I'd go for yours because
the way I read it, you can't lose. He does the doing and I do the
receiving. However, it's too late now because I've spent so much time
searching the Word myself and I have read 1
Pet 4:18 "And if the righteous SCARCELY BE
SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" So
that's blown it for me.
Bummer.
jt: They wouldn't Bill. I would much rather hear your
version than Izzys. Only there is no fear of God in it. Don't ppl need
to know what they are being saved from?
I have yet to meet the person who does not know he is a sinner. As soon
as he lets down his guard, he readily admits he is sinful. But if I do meet
such a person, I will be sure to tell him what he is being saved from.
Until then, I will tell him first what he is saved for.
jt: Without the convicting power of the Holy
Spirit ppl judge themselves by themselves; I used to do the same thing. I'd
look around and there were some better and some worse so I figured I wasn't so
bad; I'd never murdered anybody and I had no idea what sin or sinner meant, it
was an irrelevant term to me back then.
jt: Don't they need to be aware that if they do not
have a LOVE for the truth that God Himself will send them strong delusion?
This past Sunday the pastor at our Church told the
ppl that he had been hired by the elders to tell us all how bad we are and he is trying his
best to do a good job.
I'll bet that got your attention!
jt: There are two sides
to God's nature Bill and from my perspective you appear to completely ignore
one of them.
I very much disagree with you here.
God's nature is not as you suggest, if indeed you are speaking of his love on
one side and justice on the other. The Hebrew word from which we
get "justice" also conveys the ideas of "righteousness" and "mercy."
There is no justice in God's economy, which is not also righteous and
merciful.
jt: I don't
deny that there is mercy in His justice; I read in the scriptures that Jesus
Himself is mercy and truth met together in one person. However, when Jesus
comes again it will not be as a suffering Savior and it will not be "gentle
Jesus meek and mild" He is coming to judge the world in righteousness... so I
think it is time to learn how to walk in this righteousness so that we will be
found in it at his coming.
In the Greek language this concept
took two words to fully communicate, one contains the idea of justice and
righteousness, the other mercy, which began to force a split in the
concept. But when Latin became the official language of the Western
church, that concept of mercy was mostly absent in the Latin translation of
the Bible, as there were now three words from which to choose when translating
this very Hebrew concept. Hence the Hebrew and Greek words were nearly always
translated either "justice" or "righteousness" and they very seldom conveyed
the idea of mercy; therefore as this biblical concept of God's
justice was Latinized in the RCC, it tended to become quite unmerciful. As
English speakers, we have inherited that Latin problem. Our concept of
mercy has been so marginalized via the evolution of our language that it
stands now as a counter to justice, thereby it has forced a split in our
thinking about God -- love on one side of his personality and justice on
the other, with mercy falling on the love side, quite removed from justice,
where it quite legitimately belongs. This will not do for sensitive readers of
Scripture, and so we must very deliberately read mercy back into our
understanding of the justice of God, thereby closing the gap between
love and justice -- for it we do not, we will be guilty of doing a
great injustice to our God.
jt: I don't
evaluate using Greek or Latin, Eastern or Western thought. I study the
scriptures and can see God's nature and character in the way He relates to
Israel; He was long suffering and merciful to a fault but there was also
constant judgment because they were stiff necked and hardheaded and did not
learn His ways. Since Jesus is a member of the Godhead and since He is
the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He said "If you've seen me
you've seen the Father" so I don't get the idea that God changed between
Malachi and Matthew. Do you? If we are hardheaded and stiff necked
and refuse to walk after the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh -
Will the outcome for us be different?
Grace and
Peace, Judy
