On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:33:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Allow me one comment. When Paul
speaks of the sin of Adam and our relation to that, let's not forget
5:12.
jt: Don't let us forget Romans
5:14 either "Nevertheless death reigned from
Adam to Moses, even over them that had
not sinned" So infants are born into a culture of death no matter which way you look at it.
not sinned" So infants are born into a culture of death no matter which way you look at it.
We are complicit with Adam because we,
ALSO, have sinned.
jt: We and our offspring are
complicit with Adam because we are born into the spiritual death he embraced
when he
chose to disobey God.
Adam's sin opened the door to
death -- but his life did not condemn us apart from our
own failings.
jt: His life condemned us to be
born under the curse of death rather than born into life (by natural
generation) and there
is just one way to reverse the curse and move
from death to life.
No need to respond to this. I
will butt out for now.
jt: No problem
John...
In a message dated 2/9/2005 6:24:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
*note subject change
Subject was " Basis of Unity (Bill)" and now is "Original Sin"
Bill Taylor wrote:
>>... I do not think their transgressions are reckoned
>>to them as sin until that time that they have both a
>>cognitive and a moral awareness of the law,
>>i.e., of right and wrong and why the transgression
>>of such is sinful (cf. Rom 7.9).
Izzy wrote:
>Agreed.
Bill and Izzy, how do you deal with the subject matter of Romans 5? The
following passage seems to indicate that an advserse sentence of
condemnation is passed upon all men by the offense of one man:
Romans 5:18
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation
Several verses earlier, Paul was using the observation of death reigning
over men from Adam to Moses as evidence of this condemnation:
Romans 5:14
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had
not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression
The concepts Paul teaches here appear contradictory to your perceptions.
These people who experienced death did so because of someone who sinned
before them. Furthermore, they had no real understanding that that their
actions were sinful because there was no law. I have to admit that I tend
to look at matters the way you two do, but I fear that much of that is
because of my culture and upbringing. These passages challenge my way of
thinking on this, and they appear to be problematic to what you two have
just agreed upon. Please consider them carefully and offer an anwer if you
can. I am very interested.
David Miller.
