----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers
> Bill wrote: > > My greatest ministry has been to fatherless boys, > > tough kids, mainly wrestlers, who think that to show > > the least sign of weakness is to be an utter failure. > > I am very physical with these kids. > > Are you a wrestling coach? In what capacity do you do this? Is this part > of some church program or school system or something like that? It sounds > very worthwhile. No, I am just a dad who has had sons in wrestling for 16 years -- my oldest is twenty now. Wow, I feel dated! Anyway, the boys I am around have basically been together their whole lives. From the time they were in Peewees until they graduate high school, they are wrestling each other -- hence many, many all-day-long opportunities to minister to them. And their is not many activities which bring out the range of emotions that wrestling does. I get to comfort them, congratulate them, talk to them about their attitude, encourage them, and, yes, sometimes even rebuke them. And I can do this because the whole time I have been there for them; in other words, they know I'm on their side. At regionals this year a very good 152 pound wrestler, who should have gone on to state, had come done with anemia a couple weeks before the tournament. Every time he would wrestle his nose would bleed so bad that sometimes he would have to forfeit the match. Well he made it to the qualifying match to get into state, and he could not get his nose to stop bleeding -- and he had to forfeit. After the match his mother was trying to console him and he was having nothing to do with it. He was understandably quite upset, but he was not treating his mother respectfully. Finally he yanked himself away from her and headed toward the locker room. I had been standing at a distance and when they were separated, I hollered over at him. When he saw me his demeanor changed completely. Immediately he came to me and threw his arms around me, and with his sweat-soaked head and bleeding nose, sobbed his heart out on my shoulders. I told him that I was sorry that had happened to him, and as he sobbed in exhaustion, I explained to him that things happen to us that we will never be able to make sense of, yet we may know that God will use that difficulty in our life to build our character and make us stronger, better people, that maybe we will be able to comfort others when they have had similar unexplainable mishaps. When he had regained himself, he told me that it meant a lot to him that I always encouraged him. I then told him that I could tell that his mother was hurting because of the way he had treated her, and I asked him if he could perhaps go talk to her now. Well, you know what? That is just what he did, and he did it immediately, before going to shower. Now this is a very gifted, but fatherless, boy, a senior, who has pretty much lived his life at the top of the wrestling world. He is a tough guy -- yet when the confusion of this world was more than he could handle, and he had lost his cool, he was still willing to go back and make right what he had wronged. I am proud of him -- and I know in part it is because he trusted me that he turned to apologize to his mother. One had better not approach a tempersome wrestler after a loss like that, if he has not gained some credibility with the boy along the way. That is all I am saying. > Bill wrote: > > My approach with other people is only > > situationally different than this -- if it is > > a woman, I do not touch her. > > Well, I'm not quite that structured, but I do understand the need to keep > boundaries sometimes. My wife does not allow me to have any female friends > and I respect that. Sounds pretty structured to me :>) I would respect it, too. . . > > Bill wrote: > > I have learned what to say to get to people's issues, > > and once I am there I know how to show them that > > I care. As soon as people know that I am genuine > > and, more importantly, that I genuinely care about > > them, their life is an open book. I have now gained > > permission to speak to their souls. > > I think I understand this very well too. What Christian does not practice > this? Well, I have met several, but the more pertinent question, it seems to me, is this one: Did those Christians who "practice this" get it from that "Friendship Evangelism" thing that you were accusing me of selling out to? > Bill wrote: > > I briefly shared the gospel that I share with them > > the other day, and so I won't go into it here, but > > I have found that, just like Zacchaeus, people > > cannot wait to come down out of that tree when > > they know they have been loved and accepted > > unconditionally. And, like I said, it is then that > > they will be honest about their sin, for O how > > they want deliverance! > > I agree with you in this particular context. But here is where your > boundaries might need to expand. These particular people are those I would > call "in your class." They are a particular group to which you have > relationship for various reasons. There are entirely other groups of people > who would never get into this circle that you have just outlined. Maybe > they are too poor or too rich. Maybe they hate God because they were raised > to hate God. The reasons are numerous, but surely you must realize that > there are entire segments of society that would never enter into this > scenario that you have just outlined. How would we expand our borders in > evanglism and get the Word outside this subculture in which we live and > move? Well, public preaching is one way. Yeah, or you could pull into 7-11 someday and see a little black man sitting on the curb crying his eyes out. And you could walk up to him and ask him what is wrong, and you could listen to him tell you that he has a new grand-son, but since he is an alcoholic his daughter will not let him see him. And he could tell you that it had been ten years since he was sober, and that he had not come off the wagon since his son had been killed in a car accident. And you could decide then and there if you really wanted to help the man, or if you only wanted a pat on the back for "caring." And you could conclude that if you believed what you claimed you would take him home with you, a hundred and seventy miles away, to a community which has no colored people and you could help the man recover from his addictions. And you could tell him that you could not help him, but you knew who could, and if he would come home with you, you would teach him about that Man. And when you got home, you could go in and tell your wife that you had brought home a transient, that he was going to be living with you for a while. And when she tells her parents, they could have a fit and insist that she and the kids leave the house until her husband comes to his senses. And your world could come apart before your very eyes, but you could trust God, that he would provide. And your wife could trust you and move back home. And your children could learn to love a black man without an ounce of prejudice, and this because they saw you loving him. And two years later after many relapses, and having to have found the grace to love him through them, get him sobered back up and on the straight-and-narrow, this little black man can have gained a tremendous victory, and he can have seen his grand-son at last, and held him in his lap and loved him -- before he dies of liver failure. And you can stand at his funeral, the only white man in a black congregation and talk to them in straight forward and powerful language about reconciliation and loving each other as we love ourselves, and you can do this, because now you have credibility. And then after the funeral the most amazing and wonderful thing can happen to you. His 80 year old mother can boldly shuffle up to you and tell that on his deathbed Daniel said to "tell Bill that he hears the music, and then he closed his eyes and he was gone." And that will remind you how many times you had told him that he would be in heaven someday, singing those black spirituals and having a great party. And he would say, "No, not me; I used to teach Sunday School, but I'm not good enough now -- I am a sinner." > > Bill wrote: > > There is a difference, David, between not > > knowing that you are wrong, and not admitting > > that you know you are wrong. I have yet to meet > > the Christian who if honest will say that she did > > not know what she was doing was wrong; > > or that he had never thought of it as wrong until > > I pointed it out to him. > > I understand what you are saying here because you are still working within > your own particular subculture. However, there ARE Christians who do not > believe the Bible is trustworthy, and who advocate things like > homosexuality, or wife swapping, or free sex between consulting adults, or > drug use, and the list goes on and on. Again, I think a little discernment is in order here: it is one thing to not admit that you know you are wrong; it is quite another to not know that the SINS you are committing is wrong. Romans 1 speaks to this. The truth is not lost on these people; it is "repressed" (v.18), held down, pressed down upon, suppressed and kept at bay through the unrighteousness and unholiness that they practice. Yet they are without excuse (v.21), and even after having been fully given over to the depravity of their minds, they know very well that their behavior is wrong; for "knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them" (v. 32). > You have to reach out beyond your > particular subculture before you meet them. Yeah, I think I've done that. > > Bill wrote: > > But again, I think this is probably because you have > > already put them on the defensive with your approach. > > Bill, I'm not a one track guy. I preach, but that is a very small part of > my activities. Surely you realize that some people were put on the > defensive by Jesus too. Others had their hearts opened up. I experience > both too. Certainly I realize this; I also realize that the "gospel" you preach is significantly altered from that of our Lord -- as I understand it of course! That is the basis for my approach: I see it differently than you. I pray God that neither of us have strayed into apostasy, but I am not stupid. There are significant differences between what you see as truth and what I see. You still have to get people "saved"; what a tremendous burden you carry on your shoulders, and then once you get them their, you transfer the weight upon their shoulders. My Lord has already done that -- and he carried the weight. I am called to tell others about the Good News of their salvation. Big difference -- and it works itself out in significant shifts practically, too, which should not be surprising considering the circumstance. > > Bill wrote: > > Nevertheless, David, I have grown weary of this discussion. > > I guess I have a sense of knowing when I am at an impasse. > > If you do not mind, I would be content to let it go with that. > > ... So instead of saying that I should not speak about something I don't > understand, maybe you would consider listening a little more to what I have > already said. Another big difference, David. I grew up in your system and I was primarily educated under it. You on the other hand have yet to grasp the differences between "causes" and "reasons." In other words, you are miles from understanding what we are talking about. You must be open to the possibility that you haven't done and known everything there is to see and know, before you will be able to learn, that you may gain understanding. That is my exasperation: I will go with you as far as it takes, but not an inch farther than you are willing to track. If this is my weakness, I pray God will give me patience and the ability to KNOW how on earth to go further with one who is no longer with you. Bill ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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