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Thanks, Kevin, for the information. I hope you do
not think I am arguing that there could be redemption apart of the shedding of
(Jesus') blood. That is not my argument at all. Perhaps at sometime in the
future you may want to revisit this discussion; at that time I will be very
willing to speak further on the subject. Until that time should arrive, however,
it appears that we are at an impasse. Again, thanks for the information and for
your concern.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:42
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels meet for
masters use
Yes jesus priestly function is an important one. but what does that have
to do with the actual act of redmption and the Atonement?
If he had lived a perfect life No Sin No sins of Commision or Omiision No
error
and had He not been offered as our sacrifice we would have NO REDEMPTION.
There is a necessity for the DEATH of the testator! Without the shedding of
Blood NO REMISSION The efficacious portion of the work was done on
Calvalry as we have seen in the Holy Bible
It has nothing to do with a violent death as some Greek scholars
err, nor is it to do with his life as the Satanic Alice Bailey
says.
"The effort to carry out to perfection the will of God brought to an end
the most complete life that had been lived on earth."
This is the stuff Heresy is made of
See Celestial messages Here we have evil spirits talking thru spirit
channellers saying the same thing!
http://new-birth.net/tgrabjvol1/bible51.htm
For nearly two thousand years this false doctrine of the atonement has been
believed in and accepted by the so called Christian churches, and has been
promulgated by these churches as the true doctrine of Jesus and the one upon
which the salvation of man depends; and the consequences have been that men
have believed that the only things necessary to their salvation and
reconciliation to God, were the death of Jesus and the washing away of their
sins by the blood shed on Calvary.
If men only knew how futile his death was and how inefficacious his
blood is to wash away sin and pay the debt to the Father, they would
not rest in the assurance that all they have to do is to believe in this
sacrifice and this blood, but would learn the true plan of salvation and make
every effort in their power to follow that plan, and as a consequence, have
their souls developed so that they would come into harmony with the Father's
love and laws
http://www.divinelove.org TRUE
GOSPEL REVEALED ANEW BY JESUS?
http://www.christianway.org/CS%20and%20the%20Bible/Jesus.htm
Christian Science:
Jesus Christ has a dual nature
� Jesus the mortal man and Christ the spiritual idea of man. Jesus is
the human man, and Christ is the divine idea; hence, the duality
of Jesus the Christ.� (Science and Health, 473:10-17)
CS The efficacy of the crucifixion lay in
the practical affection and goodness it demonstrated for
mankind. The truth had been lived among men; but until they
saw that it enabled their Master to triumph over the grave, his own disciples
could not admit such an event to be possible. . . .
CS The efficacy of Jesus� spiritual offering is infinitely
greater than can be expressed by our sense of human blood. The
material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin
when it was shed upon �the accursed tree,� than when it was flowing
in his veins as he went daily about his Father�s business.� (Science and
Health, 24:20-31, 25:3-9)
CS �One sacrifice, however great, is insufficient to pay the debt of sin.
The atonement requires constant self-immolation on the sinner�s
part
http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/aquinas/acreed10.htm
THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS We must also know that not only
the efficacy of the Passion of Christ is communicated to us,
but also the merits of His life; and, moreover, all the good
that all the Saints have done is communicated to all who are in the state of
grace, because all are one: "I am a partaker of all them that fear Thee."[16]
Therefore, he who lives in charity participates in all the good that is done
in the entire world; but more specially does he benefit for whom some good
work is done; since one man certainly can satisfy for another.[17] Thus,
through this communion we receive two benefits. One is that the merits of
Christ are communicated to all; the other is that the good of one is
communicated to another. Those who are excommunicated, however, because they
are cut off from the Church, forfeit their part
http://www.spandayoga.org/grace.html
It is God�s Grace that leads you to the Master, known as a Siddha, Guru or
Acharya, who is the grace-bestowing power of God, and a Teacher. And it is the
Master�s Grace that sets you on your own path back to God. Grace is the
beginning, the middle and the end. Nothing can be accomplished without
Grace.
Once you have learned to recognize Grace, you are able to follow it,
allowing Grace to uplift and transform your life.
I care not to Believe Doctrines of
Devils
"without shedding of blood is no
remission"
Friend, it is not thine experience-it is the blood. God did not say,
"When I see your experience," but, "When I see the blood of Christ." Acquire
experience, cultivate the Christian graces. But, oh, do not put them where
Christ's blood ought to be.
Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think you are viewing this too restrictively,
Kevin. I hope you will come to consider it in a broader context. May I ask
you a couple questions? What kind of a priest would Christ be, had he
not learned obedience through the things he suffered? Does this suffering
apply only to his death? I think not: "For in that He Himself has suffered,
being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."
Hebrews 2.14-18: "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He
Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him
who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who
through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed
He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might
be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make
propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has
suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are
tempted."
His redemptive work certainly
culminated into a great climax at the cross -- but it did not consist
only of the cross. For instance, as we see in these verses, the propitiation
which he secured at the cross must be viewed as inclusive of the
entirety of his life; for where would we be today without his priestly
mediation? and how could he be our merciful and faithful High Priest, had he
not in all things been made like his brethren to make propitiation for our
sins?
"Though He was a Son, yet He learned
obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He
became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as
High Priest . . ." (Heb 5.8-10).
Anyway, I hope you will consider this.
I will not push it any further.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005
7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels meet
for masters use
To sin once is to be guilty of breaking ALL the law!
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole
law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Which would make Him
guilty and fit for HELL FIRE.
it was His death that ATONED for MY sin
"Without the shedding of blood is no
remission"
No matter how nice one may or may not seem. Before I was Born Again I
was an ENEMY of God
Rm 6 But God commendeth his love
toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us. Much more then, being now justified
by his blood, we shall be saved from
wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were
reconciled to God by the death of his
Son
RM 3 Whom God hath set forth to
be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to
declare his righteousness for the remission of sins
Col 1
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even
the forgiveness of sins
Hebrews How much more shall
the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience
from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is
the mediator of the new testament, that by means of
death, for the redemption of the
transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called
might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament
is, there must also of necessity be the death of the
testator. ...
without shedding of blood is
no remission
So we see we are reconciled by His death
We are justified by His blood
We are Redeemed thru His blood
He is the propitiation thru FAITH in His blood
D A
Waite The Bible is silent as to "HIS
WHOLE LIFE" as forming any basis whatever for "THE REDEMPTIVE EFFICACY OF
CHRIST'S WORK." It was as the "LAMB OF GOD" that He could "take away the
sin of the world" (John 1:29), and this "LAMB" was crucified and shed His
precious blood (1 Peter 1:18-19) as the atonement and sacrifice for the
sins of the whole world! "Without the shedding of blood is no remission"
(Hebrews 9:22). To say that Christ's "WHOLE LIFE" had anything to do with
the "REDEMPTIVE EFFICACY OF CHRIST'S WORK" is to partake of the HERESY of
modernistic religious APOSTASY!
Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Westcott believed that the redemptive efficacy of Christ's work was
to be "found in his whole life" rather than in his death.
I am somewhat perplexed as to the "offense"
of the above, Kevin. I understand that you do not hold to the same view
as I, concerning the inward nature of Christ's humanity,
but Westcott's belief seems to be a "true" even under your
view. What would it have done to the redemptive efficacy of Christ's
work if he had sinned at some point throughout his life? Was it not via
his whole obedience that he fulfilled the Law? It seems to me
that obedience to the Law was very much a part of his redemptive
work. Do you disagree?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005
6:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels
meet for masters use
Yes, unequivically! He uses 'rascals'
like those on TT so..............?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: February 19, 2005
08:19
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
vessels meet for masters use
Would God use rascals like these in the translation or for that
matter any of his work?
The new versions come from W&H's contrived text.
First Nazi's, then Perverts and now Heretics as the Fathers of
the Modern translations.
http://wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl09000c.htm
Westcott and Hort held a vague or erroneous position on
inspiration, revelation, or inerrancy.
Westcott embraced the
heresy of the universal Fatherhood of God.
Westcott denies that
God had to be propitiated.
Westcott taught that men could be
divine in some way.
Westcott espoused evolution in various
ways.
Westcott had a heretical theory of man's sinfulness and
depravity, believing in man's perfectibility in various
ways.
Westcott and Hort failed to affirm the personality of the
Devil, calling him only a power.
Westcott and Hort denied that
Heaven is a place, speaking of it as a state.
Westcott believed
that the redemptive efficacy of Christ's work was to be "found in
his whole life" rather than in his death.
Westcott questioned the
eternal preexistence of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Westcott and Hort
denied the deity of Jesus Christ.
Westcott explained away some of
the miracles of Christ.
Westcott and Hort denied or gave a false
meaning to the literal, bodily resurrection of Christ.
Westcott
and Hort had a false and heretical view of the vicarious,
substitutionary sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/wh/wh.htm
Westcott: "My faith is still
wavering. I cannot determine how much we must
believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a member of
the Church." (Life, Vol.I, p.46).
Westcott: "After leaving the monastery we
shaped our course to a little oratory...It is very small, with one
kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a 'Pieta'
the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ)...I could not help
thinking on the grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in
error, on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with
nobler views and a purer end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I
could have knelt there for hours." (Life, Vol.I, p.81).
Westcott: "All stigmatise him (a Dr. Hampden)
as a 'heretic,'...I thought myself that he was
grievously in error, but yesterday I read over the selections from
his writings which his adversaries make, and in them I found
systematically expressed the very strains of thought which I have
been endeavouring to trace out for the last two or three years. If
he be condemned, what will become of me?" (Life,
Vol.I,p.94).
Hort: "But the book which has most engaged me
is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a
book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work out and
examine the argument in more detail, but at present my feeling is
strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Life,
Vol.I, p.416).
Hort: "I entirely agree - correcting one
word - with what you there say on the Atonement, having for many
years believed that "the absolute union of the Christian (or rather,
of man) with Christ Himself" is the spiritual truth of which the
popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and
material counterfeit...Certainly nothing can be more unscriptural
than the modern limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings
to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost
universal heresy." (Life, Vol.I, p.430).
Hort: "I have been persuaded for many years
that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-worship have very
much in common in their causes and their results." (Life, Vol.II,
p.50).
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