[TruthTalk] Loving and Merciful God of Justice

[Dave Hansen]

Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave wrote:    I think one of the biggest /problems /(if that is the proper word to use) I have with Protestantism is their view of hell and damnation.  I've said it before, but for some of you who are a bit new to TT, I'll give you a brief explanation.  It seems to me that Protestants are far too eager to toss those who don't agree with their perspective of religion on the ash heap of hell, so o speak.  Or rather, they seem to pleasure in the thought that God will forever punitively torture those who fail to walk that narrow path and enter the strait gate.  I just don't feel comfortable believing in a God who relishes torture, Lance.  I prefer to believe God is loving, merciful and would that all his creation benefit from their existence.   Dave, if I may comment on your perspective of "protestants"... I do not find your perception at all be consitent with the Christians ("protestants", if you prefer, although "protestants" does not encompass the whole of Christendom) DAVEH:   I realize that, Perry.  From my perspective, it is Protestantism that has drawn me to TT.  If I wanted to talk to any Christian, I could simply chat with the LDS folks I meet at church. I have known throughout my life. I know that God wants none to perish, and would like for all to come to Him. However, he is just at the same time, and those who refuse God will have an eternal life apart from Him. DAVEH:  I fully agree with what you've said so far, Perry.  What concerns me is how Protestants view what happens to those who those who do not accept Jesus. It is their own choice. Paul says that God is evident in all of creation, so no man is without excuse. DAVEH:  That's pretty lame in my opinion, Perry.  So.....are you saying that a person who lived without ever hearing of Jesus (say 1500 years ago in China) should be a believer of Jesus because of the evidence of God in what has been created?  Simply appreciating the wonders of the world God created makes one a Christian, so to speak?   ........Is that what you are suggesting, Perry?   Or....do you think that the tongue needs to confess Jesus to be a believer in Jesus?   I have never met a protestant that truly finds pleasure in the thought that unbeleivers will spend eternity apart from God, whatever that may be like. Nor have I ever met ANY Christian who believes that God relishes torture. DAVEH:   You are a late comer to TT..... However, I have heard that from unbeleivers who are looking for reasons to reject God.   The bottom line is that God IS loving and merciful, and would like for all to come to Him, but he also is just. None of us are worthy, Dave as Paul said...none is without sin. DAVEH:   Agreed.  But for those who do not accept Jesus, do you not belief that men will be forever physically tortured for a sin they committed in mortality....a fixed time frame?  How does such a momentary transgression bring such a long term physical punishment?  Furthermore, it is not the transgression that demands the physical torture that lasts forever, but it is the failure to accept Jesus that separates those who receive that punitively painful punishment from those who get all the treasures of heaven.  The whole Protestant concept of hell pivots on simply accepting Jesus or not.  And that concept of hell is one of either pleasure, or torture.  Does a simple mental attitude (that may not be the way to best express it) justify forever being in pleasure vs forever being physically tortured?   To me it seems like a rather unloving and unmerciful way to dispense justice. And, no man is without excuse, because god is evident in creation. At the final call, either we wil have beleived, or we will not have beleived. And, only a merciful and just God can make that call...only He is worthy to open the book of life.   I am truly sorry that you have that perspective of Christians. DAVEH:  I don't have that perspective of all Christians at all, Perry.  (Or, the subset called "protestants" if you prefer). DAVEH:   I certainly have seen more of that unpalatable perspective in Protestants than Christians. I do not know where you have gotten your information, DAVEH:    Some has come from what I find beneath my windshield wipers, but a lot of it has come from TT. but it certainly does not reflect the Christians I know or have met. I have never felt that way. DAVEH:   ???   Really?  Do you not think God will toss all those who do not accept Jesus into a lake of fire to be forever physically tortured, Perry???   I thought you would believe such.  If I am wrong in assuming you believe that way....please correct me.  If you do not answer any of my other questions in this post, Perry, I would very much appreciate you responding to this question. In fact, one of the toughest questions I have had to deal with since becoming a Christian is how such wonderful, sincerel, loving people, the Mormons, could be considered a cult, and perhaps rejected by God. I found that the answer lies not in the way one appears to behave, but that one beleives in the true God of thee universe, not some counterfeit. DAVEH:   I find it hard to accept that a loving, merciful and just God would punitively and forever physically torture people.  Perry Lance Muir wrote: With a vengeance? DAVEH:  Yes Lance, I meant that in the sense they will soon be flooding my inbox with more than I am capable of assimilating.  I did not intend to suggest their posts would be vengeful. I think not. More likely praising God for the richness of the time they spent at a conference. I'll not steal any of their thunder.  Tell me, Dave, were it to be the case that you are, in reality, quite wrong as to your understanding of God and His Gospel, what do you believe the consequences would be? (eternally). DAVEH:  If I am wrong in my beliefs, then would not my perception of my consequences also be in question?    I think one of the biggest /problems /(if that is the proper word to use) I have with Protestantism is their view of hell and damnation.  I've said it before, but for some of you who are a bit new to TT, I'll give you a brief explanation.  It seems to me that Protestants are far too eager to toss those who don't agree with their perspective of religion on the ash heap of hell, so to speak.  Or rather, they seem to pleasure in the thought that God will forever punitively torture those who fail to walk that narrow path and enter the strait gate.  I just don't feel comfortable believing in a God who relishes torture, Lance.  I prefer to believe God is loving, merciful and would that all his creation benefit from their existence. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.