On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:34:30 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 4/7/2005 2:41:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John in orange this post.
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:30:54 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Et al: I have been doing a little thinking about various aspects of my counseling ministry in view of the triune considerations. And I see, almost daily, the value of the teaching. In II Cor 5:21, we are told that Christ became sin (assumed all sin) so that in Him, we might become righteous. Righteousness in II Cor is a gift of grace.
jt: "That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" is how the verse goes JD. It's a process that does not happen by way of the incarnation JD. In fact this will never happen without our cooperation in the process of sanctification..
JD: I disagree. In 5:21, we have an EVENT (the assumption of sin by Christ on the cross) that is credited with the creation of "righteousness in Him." We assume His righteousness in this II Cor passage.
jt: Hate to disagree with one of the Gk Brigade here but study 2 Cor 5:21 some more without a closed mind and you will see that the word made is used twice and there is a different Gk word each time."He was made sin is
Strongs #4160 poieo (to make or do, execute, exercise) that we might be made Strongs #1096 ginomai (to cause to be or generate, to become or come into being, be brought to pass, come to pass, continue, grow, happen). So you see JD it is something other than a one time event, especially in light of what follows; 6:1 reads "We then as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain" So obviously it is not a "done deal" JD.Strong gives you the lexical usage -- not the grammatical usage. The word in question "ginomia" is written in the subjunctive (2) aorist. In plain language, we have an activity ("might be made") that is conditional upon the action of Christ (assuming sin) and a done deal (aorist tense -- which is a past tense). When we are attached to Christ, we take on His righteousness !!jt: This is so frustrating JD, why can't you understand that the whole world is NOT "attached to Christ" even though he became sin for them by taking on the sin of the whole world? When we read the rest of the book we find that even some of those who profess to belong to him - cast out demons - and do miracles in His Name are not accepted.How come?? Were they made righteous??? He calls them lawless.This in no wise argues against personal involvement -- but it does change the purpose of our involvement. The Expositor's Bible Commentary on II Cor 5:21 puts it this way: "but here [5:21] Paul says that 'in Christ' the believer in some sense actually shares the righteousness that characterizes God himself." If you turn to I Cor. 1:30, and read that text, you will find that Christ is the source (for us) of wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
jt: Yes I understand He is the source for all of that but source is a far cry from the big picture you have been proclaiming. A tree without fruit has the axe layed to it's roots and this is true in every generation. If Christ is the root in our hearts (source) then our lives will produce the right kind of fruit - so it will be "well done thou good and faithful servant" or "depart from me you who practice lawlessness" Then we will know for sure that all of this striving over Gk theological word meanings will have been a big waste of time because God is well able to communicate in English.
In Romans "faith" is exchanged for "righteousness." No "process" is implied. We "cooperate" because this has already happened, not to facilitate it's occurence in our lives. Such a statement parallels with Romans 4 and the claim that His faith (or "faith" ----- let's not argue on this) is exchanged for our righteousness. The point being that we are made righteous by Another.
jt: How about if we agree that we are given another source for our choices in life, a heart of flesh instead of the heart of stone, but we are still responsible for making the right choices and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in us. Would you have a problem with any of this?
jt: So whose faith did Abraham have that was counted to Him for righteousness?
JD: You are ignoring the comments made in the above. "Whose faith did Abraham have ..." is a question of no consequence and I even asked you to avoid the argument and allowed for "faith" to be used in the way you understand it. It is right there in the text (above). THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS: "faith" has been considered IN THE PLACE OF OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is the fact of this passage. Take that meaning away and you have nothing of importance from this text. You make it meaningless. There has to be another point of view - another interpretation.jt: You can't get away from the fact that Abraham believed God and it was his choice to believe and act, just as it is in the lives of the rest of us. Yes Jesus makes the provision and gives us power over the enemy in His Name but faith without any corresponding action is useless and D-E-A-D....
Now, here is good question. Without sounding like I am backing off on "grace through faith salvation," I will say that ALL theologies have their problematic concerns. All of them. Which should say something for having our "being" defined by our relationship with Christ (there is your "process") as opposed to knowledge ( I Cor 8:1-3).
jt: God's Word itself has no problematic concerns -JD: What do you think I mean by the wording "problematic concerns?"jt: I think you refer to contradictions and things that don't compute and I say that the reason for these things is the doctrines of men (well actually it is doctrines that come from demons but men promote them)JD: You over-simpliy the contributing problems.
jt: I don't believe I do JD, I've been around and around the same mountains and it was not until I laid aside all the books and opinions and came to God asking Him to show me that things began to fall into place for me and I can honestly say today that I don't have to add any words or change anything to understand God's Word and there are two or more witnesses to validate every point of doctrine. After all His Word is what will judge us in the last day, not the words of Kruger, Torrance, or Barth.
JD: But, to answer your question. There is little doubt, IMO, that in a reading of Gen 15:5,6, the "faith" spoken of there is that of Abraham. He was counted "righteous" at that moment (a problematic passage for your theology, as well, I might add, with gusto.) Some may have missed my rather subtle solution to this problem.
jt: Not a problem for me JD since I don't accept just gazing up at the stars as the evidence of "faith" referred to by scripture.JD: Nor is it for me -- I just presented the solution !!! You might not want to accept this, but that is the situation in Genesis 15:5,6. He was declared "righteous" as the moment of "faith." There was nothing he could, that evening, except look to the heavens.jt: You are over-simplifying the situation between God and Abraham JD. In fact the NT faith chapter cites his corresponding action "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God" (Heb 11:8-10)JD: So Paul and the writer of Genesis are full of the brown proverbial ? Common Judy -- you make void this Genesis passage with such reasoning.
jt: I don't make void anything JD, I agree he looked at the stars in Genesis 15 but this is not what the writer of Hebrews cites as evidence of his faith toward God. I am not adding anything or taking away anything (making it void) here but we need to read it in the proper context and remember that Abraham's faith was not without corresponding action along with the fact that obedience is not dead religious (flesh) works.
JD: Recently, I have talked about "our faith attached to His faith." ( I must add that I have seen this solution in the writings of others -- I only adopted the solution) And this is one of the passages of thought that gives me a defense for this solution. There are TWO passages the help to define Romans 4:3, 11. I use the 4:3 and 11 as a single thought -- Abraham's justification is ours and for the same reason, per 4:3 and 11. Genesis 15:5,6 is one of two defining passages. Abraham only looks to the stars and believes -- and BAM -- he is "righteous. His faith is in play. Abraham's own faith.
jt: I don't think so JD. Faith must have some corresponding action or it is dead being alone (James 2:17-20,26). I'd scrap those misleading writers if I were you.JD: You mean Moses and Paul? They are the one's who make this conclusion.
jt: Moses and Paul are not saying "our faith is attached to His faith" JD. Abraham is given as an example for us, and receive the same kind of righteousness when we exercise the same kind of faith along with corresponding action. Faith is the gift of God ie: "to every man is given the measure of faith" but why not just say it the way God says it?
JD: But Romans 4:5 (this is the 2nd passages of which I speak) - an immediate contextual statement - says this: But to the one not working but believing on the one justifying the ungodly, (taht would be Chrsit) is accounted the faith of him (Christ) for righteousness. " That Paul sees "Christ" in this example is somewhat of a theological surprise because, apart from Paul, we might not see this connection at all. Paul sees Christ in this Abrahamic illustration (Gen 15:5,6). Proof?
jt: I don't see anything about Genesis 15:5,6 in Romans 4:5 at all. In fact Ephesians 2:8 harmonizes better "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (and don't forget it is possible to receive grace in vain 2 Cor 6:1).
jt: Abraham "believed" (obeyed) God many moons before the "Christ event"JD: You equate belief with obedience -- they are the same thing? Besides the obvious, you argument in this sentence is dealt with in my comments in the following.
JD: Read on. It (this "proof") is here in Romans 4:5 where it is "the faith of Him" and it is, again, in Gal 3:14-16 where "seed" is not "seeds as of many, but 'seed' as of one -- Christ." I suggest that apart from Paul, we would not see Jesus in the Gen. passage - but with Paul, the reference is without failure. I don't have the time to demonstrate, but this Gen passage is used in NT writings to speak of a people -- and not the Christ. What do we conclude? That a partnership of sorts is the resulting theology -- Christ and us. He performs and we show our appreciation.
jt: Rather God gave Him as a Covenant to the ppl and we get in on it. The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY Him (Acts 5:32)JD: Nothing in this sentence has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLICAL ARGUMENT OF MY COMMENTS in the above paragraph. Please deal with that statement.jt: So you are using "proof texts" JD? No need to prove anything like that. In Galatians 3 Paul says that the blessing of Abraham comes upon the Gentiles in Christ that we might receive the Promise of the Spirit by faith and Vs.16 Abrahams seed of Promise is Christ (singular) and the seeds (plural) is the Church.
JD: Kruger ( I believe) has said that the essence of "faith" is a reverent "surprise" or something like that. I believe that it is "awe" and "appreciation" as an emotion. His works bring to the surface the emotion of appreciation, at least for me. And so His faith does the work of justification so that my "faith" might have time to fulfill the process of holiness which is the very purpose of all that God has done - He did it all for us.
