On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:54:07 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On the TT List you appear (to me at least) to be completely taken
with what you call the "larger context" and the
"Christ event".
"Christ event".
JD: Indeed I am quite taken by
these two considerations. The "larger context" is perhaps equivalent
to your "in balance and in context" phrasing. To me, the "larger context"
is that context which relates to a specific verse or statement of
doctrine. The "Christ event" -- to me -- is my way
of including all that Christ is about --- His eternal
Sonship, His incarnation and ministry, His death, resurrection, ascension and
continued life IN the believers (i.e. "the Holy
Spirit").
jt: Some major problems here JD. You
will not accept the reality that mankind since the fall has been walking in
spiritual death; or even the fact that man is primarily a spirit being; the
awfulness of sin; or that God ONLY gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY
HIM (Jesus). I am wondering
how you preach this "larger context"
and what the fruit of it would be in the lives of the young ppl;
does it cause them to "follow hard after God" or to be "complacent and self
satisfied?"
with some effectiveness, I
hope - are you so
above the emotion of "empathy" that you have no idea how I might answer this
part of the question? My own children (five of them) have as a
central issue in their lives the Living Christ. I think that speaks rather
well of the effectiveness of my preaching - when we speak as of the
oracles of God, we will have the desired effect (eventually if not
immediately).
jt: Since we don't agree on what the oracles of God consist of JD
I don't have any idea what the scenario you describe above - (that is
having the "living Christ" as a central issue) would look like. Does this
mean being an OBEDIENT doer of His Word or something else such as these ppl
accepting that they are included in the "incarnation" or "Christ event" and all
is OK with them and the world?
I mean to be very careful
here. I am not putting my children up against anyone's else'.
Nor am I putting my religiosity along side anyone's. But I am saying
that God has and is working through me to keep my children in a state of
spiritual health.
jt: If they are now grown I would hope God
is working through them to influence their own children. All we can do after the years of parental responsibility has
passed is pray that they will make the right choices in life and be the right
kind of example in our own lives. If we are in fact righteous then our
prayers should avail much.
If one knew of the real John
Smithson -- with all his faults and foibles, you would, then,
understand that it is God who is giving the increase. I am confident
in the Lord that He can and will work His will through my life and my
"preaching" regardless of preceived "failues." So, I approach the office
of Parent with great confidence. And I counsel the office of Parent
with the enthusiasm that comes from knowing that I am (as are
others) in partnership with the Lord -- that it is to
Him that I stand or fall and He will make me to
stand.
jt: I'm in no position to evaluate you
personally, your children, or your "preaching" JD since I have no first hand
experience with any of this. I am responsible however to examine and try
what I have come in contact with in the form of email on TT.
You claim all sorts of heresy
of me --- putting me outside the circle on many occasions.
Fine. The reason I do not buy in to that criticism is two fold: what
I see in your attitude on this site and (more importantly) what God is doing and
has done for me and my family over the years. I am a believer,
as you are.
jt: Have I ever called you
an unbeliever JD? You misjudge my attitude along with most of what I
write.
Look, I have two daughters -- both worship-leaders and with Christ on the brain 24/7. I have one son, the youngest (Russ), who is the same. He is 27 and a full blown minister of Christ -- an avocation while he works as a partner of sorts with me in the cabinet business. And, then, I have two sons (James and Chad). When I am critical of harsh speech and the "ministry of rebuking," I am thinking of these two boys (boys I say -- one is 30 this month and the other is 37). The youngest is a doctor and the oldest a lawyer. If God had not blessed me with openness and half a brain (just to keep things equal ) -- these two guys would be so far out there as to be "lost." One cannot become a doctor or a lawyer without experiencing education at the hands of those who would teach them great harm. I am not their equal -- but they think I am. Fine with me. When I give them an answer to the option of "evolution" or of "situational ethics," it had better be right on.
Look, I have two daughters -- both worship-leaders and with Christ on the brain 24/7. I have one son, the youngest (Russ), who is the same. He is 27 and a full blown minister of Christ -- an avocation while he works as a partner of sorts with me in the cabinet business. And, then, I have two sons (James and Chad). When I am critical of harsh speech and the "ministry of rebuking," I am thinking of these two boys (boys I say -- one is 30 this month and the other is 37). The youngest is a doctor and the oldest a lawyer. If God had not blessed me with openness and half a brain (just to keep things equal ) -- these two guys would be so far out there as to be "lost." One cannot become a doctor or a lawyer without experiencing education at the hands of those who would teach them great harm. I am not their equal -- but they think I am. Fine with me. When I give them an answer to the option of "evolution" or of "situational ethics," it had better be right on.
jt: Good for you, it sounds as though God
has been faithful in ministering to your children JD.
And when I listen to the proponents of
"rebuking ministries," I actually get angry, knowing just how many people
will be driven away while the rebuker is yelling "and few there are who
find it" - an emotionally stated excuse for their own failure
as a minister of the Gospel of Grace.
jt: Who exactly are the "rebukers" JD?
Anyone who believes Matthew 7 and tells others the road is narrow? The
truth of God's Word drove away the "rich young ruler" who didn't want to part
with his worldly goods - That didn't stop Jesus from confronting him with
it.
There are no fences to sit on when it comes
to this contrast. Not for me. Because I have seen
the great harm it has caused.
jt: If the truth drives them away JD at
least you will know that you don't have their blood on your hands... And some
will stay; that is, the few who are willing to take the strait gate and the
narrow road that leads to life and follow hard after God.
Patience, full acceptance regardless of
conduct, well reasoned theology that is mindful of well reasoned objections, and
consistency of faith and conviction in my life, all play an equal role in the
salvation of these two brothers. Every parent is capable of
this -- but some prefer to dictate and brainwash out of fear, plain
old understandable fear -- that if they let go and let God (as they
say) , hell is on the horizon for their children.
jt: I don't know
about the "well reasoned theology" part JD. When they are grown it's time
to leg to completely and let God.
The promise of "inherited
faithfulness" in the scripture is not one of consistency, but one of
eventuality. What ??!!!
We are promised that if we raise up a child in the way he should go, WHEN
HE IS OLD he will not depart from it. We panic when the grandchild
says, "Gramps, I don't believe in God, anymore" rather than simply responding by
asking that child to "pass the gravy." We tend to worry, praying all
night, for the child who has "decided" that the scriptures are nothing special
or that "Buddhism has as much to offer than Christianity------rather than
relying on the promise of God. We are actually left wondering about the
future when our children come home late at night, drunk or pregnant, forgetting
the promise.
Are you
speaking from "experience" JD?
I believe in and will preach this doctrine of
reconciliation because, without it, there is no value to this promise
(stated above "WHEN HE IS OLD .....").
jt: The promise you are clinging to above
for your children was given under the Law that you spurn JD... same as the one
that says: "They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the
law contend with them" And "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the
law, even his prayer shall be abomination"
The teaching that ALL HAS BEEN RECONCILED,
ALL IN THE EARTH, ALL IN THE HEAVENS, ALL THAT IS VISIBLE AND ALL THAT IS
INVISIBLE, is a teaching that comes complete with the doctrine of the
partnership of God the Father in the life of each and every man, woman and child
in this earth - AND MY BOYS.
jt: So even
if/when they are out there in the pigpen you believe they are ATST reconciled to
God? As for the creation - I read in Romans that all creation groans
until the 'sons of God' are made manifest which has not taken place as of
now..
No matter how far out my boys might be at a
given time in their often ridiculous lives, I KNOW that God is
at work within them both to will and to do His good
pleasure. And you think me a
heretic for such a belief - I pity you for
that.
jt: How can you be sure they have not
grieved the Holy Spirit and trampled the blood of the covenant underfoot
JD?
Or have I misunderstood your
belief. Perhaps we really are on the same page. As for
me and my house, I have seen the workings of God and know of His
power to ultimately defeat any evil in the lives of my own children.
AND I HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE IN THAT WORKING POWER OF GOD. So, while
you condemn me to hell (or was it only a "premonition" on my part) , you
just might be writing to one of the gate keepers
!!! How's that for arrogance !!!!
JD
jt: You are presumptuous to the max in what you write about me JD
- so why would I think you would be any different with God? I have not
condemned you or your boys to anything, however I will say FWIW that you are far
more assured than the apostle Paul in his writings. judyt
you may influence from your role in leadership because to me it does not sound much different from what I was
taught early on in the Methodist Church ie that the death of Christ was a historical event that was supposed to
benefit me in some way. No Holy Spirit conviction there at all, just religious dead works. jt Is the above what you heard in the Methodist church? If so, reestablish your membership in a hurry.
