JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to both
questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works
(obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I will give you
Paul for the sake of argument -- How did Paul provide you
with the Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the
works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point is the
same.
jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the
miracles but He works through men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point.
The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not
law. Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of
the fact that I am quoting scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the "obedience"
factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham
obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb
5:9) and "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God"
(1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more
certain that clinging to this incarnational thing is
folly.
JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw
only danger in their return to the law. These folk are
converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet, there are
those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law.
jt: How can you be sure they were all
Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they
lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred
up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation. They
taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical system in part even without
a temple; these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3
explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh
and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles,
but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most
part. The "flesh" in this passage is the Law. Context
Judy, context. They had the power -- and Paul is
saying, do not choose law over Spirit.
jt: No, he exhorts them to get out of the flesh and
back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the
Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER CHILDREN
(24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child
of the promise --- not Hagar and her children.
Pay
special attention to verses 28 and 29 ??? And you brethren,
like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who
was born according to the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and
persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now,
also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and Isaac
were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural generation,
the difference between them was spiritual. Isaac was the child of
promise (faith). Ishmael was the product of the flesh trying to
fulfill the promise of God. They believed God but tried to do it
in their own strength just like Moses when he killed the Egyptian.
He knew God wanted him to lead but he didn't wait upon God's
timing. The flesh is forever running out there trying to look good
and do good things for God.
JD: Look again to
5:16,17: For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit
and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one
another, so that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans
7:14ff). But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the
Law.
jt: You are making my point JD. Romans 7
teaches that the only time we are not under the law is when we are
married to another (Christ) and we serve in the newness of the Spirit
and not in the oldness of the letter. "What shall we say then, is the
law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I had
not known lust except the law had said "Thou shalt not
covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a good
showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that
they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who
are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to
have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels, noses, and
numbers which is the same as making a good show after the
flesh. It's happening all the time.
JD: Nothing?
!! The whole book is about the Law and foolishness of seeking to
live under its bondage -- something spirit-filled Galatians
are encouraged to reject. The whole book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree JD; the second to last chapter
of the book of Galatians Chapter 5 contrasts the works of
the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. He says nothing at all about
God's Law, nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is love joy
??against such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law) made it
a point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we "walk after the
Spirit" we will be producing the fruit of the Spirit and this is what it
will look like. It's all about us and our heart attitude because
when we walk in and after the flesh we will be overcome rather than
"overcomers"
JD: Your gospel would tell these folks, ?Use
the power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the
Law. Do not reject what God has given !! Embrace it
and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.? None of that is found
in the letter - yet this is your message. Snip
snip, Judy.
jt: I am not antinomian like you JD
but the gospel I believe and follow would not tell these ppl
anything of the sort;
lawless ppl are not living by the power of the
Holy Ghost, they are off on their own, doing their own thing and what's
more we don't "use" God, we either do things His way or we are just out
there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD. They had been
"bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so Paul was
trying to get them
back on track. They wouldn't be working
any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent and return to
their first works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled by the
Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of binding
themselves to the Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have for the
above?? Paul never ever bad mouths God's
Law. In fact he writes to the Church at Corinth that he is
"Not without the law to God but under
the law to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What about
that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this fact: to
be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind (the mind of
Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were mostly totally
ignorant of God's Law when we came to Christ. But hey, if this Law
is so obsolete - then why does God (under the New Covenant) write it on
our hearts? (see Jeremiah & Hebrews). Just walking in the
flesh while trying to be good "religious" folk is
t he same thing
because there is no faith in that either. The Levitical system is
finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh puts us
under the same curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for this
Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of the
fact that Paul
contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep the law, if you will DM
-- as for me and my house, we will
serve the Lord.
The Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from heaven
come with another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually it is
impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are talking out
of both sides of your mouth. Also if you are trusting in the
"incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off
...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect
of the Christ in my (our) life. To think otherwise is heretical at
best, and heretical in the lest.
jt:
According to who? I don't see Paul preaching or teaching that
doctrine anywhere in Acts or the Epistles.
Are you
denying this statement: The Incarnation is the story and
purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?
jt: Yes; Paul preached the cross and it is
the cross that is the offense which will bring persecution because the
flesh does not like to be confronted with it's sad and sorry
state. jt
