JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer
to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the
works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I
will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How
did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of
miracles -- through the works of the Law or by the
hearing with faith. My point is the same.
jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but
He works through men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my
point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were
because of faith, not law. Can you understand how I
might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting
scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the
"obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie
"By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to
all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of
them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am
quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that
clinging to this incarnational thing is folly.
JD:
They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in
their return to the law. These folk are
converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet,
there are those who would drag them back into a life of
compliance to the Law.
jt: How can
you be sure they were all Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that
they lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact
they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a
reputation. They taught that it was Jesus plus the
Levitical system in part even without a temple; these ppl had
reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning
"Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now
made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh and
spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were
Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the
most part. The "flesh" in this passage is the
Law. Context Judy, context. They had the power
-- and Paul is saying, do not choose law over
Spirit.
jt: No,
he exhorts them to get out of the flesh and back into
walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the
Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says
to me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND
HER CHILDREN (24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and
Isaac is a fellow child of the promise --- not
Hagar and her children.
Pay special attention to verses 28
and 29 ??? And you brethren, like Isaac, are
children of promise. But as at that time he who was born
according to the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and
persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit, so it is
now, also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and
Isaac were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural
generation, the difference between them was spiritual.
Isaac was the child of promise (faith). Ishmael was the
product of the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God.
They believed God but tried to do it in their own strength just
like Moses when he killed the Egyptian. He knew God wanted
him to lead but he didn't wait upon God's timing. The
flesh is forever running out there trying to look good and do
good things for God.
JD: Look again to
5:16,17: For the flesh sets its desire against the
Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in
opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things you
please (compare Romans 7:14ff). But, if you are led by the
Spirit, you are not under the Law.
jt: You are making my point JD.
Romans 7 teaches that the only time we are not under the law is
when we are married to another (Christ) and we serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
"What shall we say then, is the law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I had
not known sin but by the law; for I had not known lust except
the law had said "Thou shalt not covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a
good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised,
simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of
Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the
Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that
they may boast in your flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels,
noses, and numbers which is the same as making a good show after
the flesh. It's happening all the time.
JD:
Nothing? !! The whole book is about the Law and
foolishness of seeking to live under its bondage --
something spirit-filled Galatians are encouraged to
reject. The whole book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree JD; the second to last
chapter of the book of Galatians Chapter
5 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the
Spirit. He says nothing at all about God's Law,
nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is love
joy ??against such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law)
made it a point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we
"walk after the Spirit" we will be producing the fruit of the
Spirit and this is what it will look like. It's all about
us and our heart attitude because when we walk in and after the
flesh we will be overcome rather than
"overcomers"
JD: Your gospel would tell these
folks, ?Use the power of the indweeling that you have received,
to fulfill the Law. Do not reject what God has given
!! Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy
Ghost.? None of that is found in the letter - yet
this is your message. Snip snip, Judy.
jt: I am not antinomian like you JD but the gospel
I believe and follow would not tell these ppl anything of
the sort;
lawless ppl are not living by the power of the Holy
Ghost, they are off on their own, doing their own thing and
what's more we don't "use" God, we either do things His way or
we are just out there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD. They had
been "bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so
Paul was trying to get them
back on track. They wouldn't be
working any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent
and return to their first works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled
by the Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge
of binding themselves to the Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have
for the above?? Paul never
ever bad mouths God's Law. In fact he writes to the Church at
Corinth that he is "Not without the law
to God but under the law to Christ" (1
Cor 9:21) What about that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this
fact: to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind (the
mind of Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were
mostly totally ignorant of God's Law when we came to
Christ. But hey, if this Law is so obsolete - then why
does God (under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts? (see
Jeremiah & Hebrews). Just walking in the flesh
while trying to be good "religious" folk is
t he same thing
because there is no faith in that either. The Levitical system
is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh
puts us under the same curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v
for this Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of
the
fact that Paul contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep
the law, if you will DM -- as for me and my
house, we will
serve the Lord. The Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from
heaven come with another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually
it is impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You
are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Also if you are
trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any
better off ...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued
effect of the Christ in my (our) life. To think otherwise
is heretical at best, and heretical in the lest.
jt: According to who? I don't
see Paul preaching or teaching that doctrine anywhere in Acts or
the Epistles.
Are you denying this
statement: The Incarnation is the story and purpose
and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?
jt: Yes; Paul preached the cross and
it is the cross that is the offense which will bring persecution
because the flesh does not like to be confronted with it's sad
and sorry state. jt
