JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to
both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works
(obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I will give you
Paul for the sake of argument -- How did Paul provide you
with the Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the
works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point is the
same.
jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the
miracles but He works through men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point.
The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not
law. Can you understand how I might believe this, in view
of the fact that I am quoting scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the "obedience"
factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham
obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him
(Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel
of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting scripture too JD; this makes me
even more certain that clinging to this incarnational thing is
folly.
JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul
saw only danger in their return to the law. These
folk are converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet,
there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to
the Law.
jt: How can you be sure they were
all Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they
lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred
up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation. They
taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical system in part even
without a temple; these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians
3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the
Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is
between flesh and spirit, rather than God's Law and
Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were
Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most
part. The "flesh" in this passage is the Law. Context
Judy, context. They had the power -- and Paul is
saying, do not choose law over Spirit.
jt: No, he exhorts them to get out of the flesh and
back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the
Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER
CHILDREN (24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a
fellow child of the promise --- not Hagar and her
children.
Pay special attention to verses 28 and 29 ???
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at
that time he who was born according to the flesh (Hagar?s children ?
of the Law) and persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit,
so it is now, also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and Isaac
were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural generation,
the difference between them was spiritual. Isaac was the child
of promise (faith). Ishmael was the product of the flesh trying
to fulfill the promise of God. They believed God but tried to do
it in their own strength just like Moses when he killed the
Egyptian. He knew God wanted him to lead but he didn't wait upon
God's timing. The flesh is forever running out there trying to
look good and do good things for God.
JD: Look again to
5:16,17: For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit
and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one
another, so that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans
7:14ff). But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under
the Law.
jt: You are making my point JD. Romans
7 teaches that the only time we are not under the law is when we are
married to another (Christ) and we serve in the newness of the Spirit
and not in the oldness of the letter. "What shall we say then, is the
law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I
had not known lust except the law had said "Thou shalt not
covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a good
showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that
they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those
who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they
desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your
flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels, noses, and
numbers which is the same as making a good show after the
flesh. It's happening all the time.
JD: Nothing?
!! The whole book is about the Law and foolishness of seeking to
live under its bondage -- something spirit-filled
Galatians are encouraged to reject. The whole book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree JD; the second
to last chapter of the book of Galatians Chapter
5 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit.
He says nothing at all about God's Law, nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is love joy
??against such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law) made
it a point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we "walk after
the Spirit" we will be producing the fruit of the Spirit and this is
what it will look like. It's all about us and our heart attitude
because when we walk in and after the flesh we will be overcome rather
than "overcomers"
JD: Your gospel would tell these
folks, ?Use the power of the indweeling that you have received, to
fulfill the Law. Do not reject what God has given !!
Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.? None of
that is found in the letter - yet this is your
message. Snip snip, Judy.
jt: I am not
antinomian like you JD but the gospel I believe and
follow would not tell these ppl anything of the sort;
lawless
ppl are not living by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on
their own, doing their own thing and what's more we don't "use" God,
we either do things His way or we are just out there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD. They had been
"bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so Paul was
trying to get them
back on track. They wouldn't be working
any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent and return to
their first works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled by the
Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of binding
themselves to the Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have for the
above?? Paul never ever bad mouths
God's Law. In fact he writes to the Church at Corinth that he is
"Not without the law to God but
under the law to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What
about that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this fact:
to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind (the mind
of Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were
mostly totally ignorant of God's Law when we came to
Christ. But hey, if this Law is so obsolete - then why does God
(under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts? (see Jeremiah &
Hebrews). Just walking in the flesh while trying to be good
"religious" folk is
t he same thing because there is no faith in
that either. The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but trusing
in the works of the flesh puts us under the same curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for
this Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of the
fact that
Paul contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep the law, if you will
DM -- as for me and my house, we will
serve the
Lord. The Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from heaven
come with another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually it is
impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are talking
out of both sides of your mouth. Also if you are trusting in the
"incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off
...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect
of the Christ in my (our) life. To think otherwise is heretical
at best, and heretical in the lest.
jt: According to who? I don't see Paul preaching
or teaching that doctrine anywhere in Acts or the
Epistles.
Are you denying this
statement: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and
continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?
jt: Yes; Paul preached the cross and it is the cross
that is the offense which will bring persecution because the flesh
does not like to be confronted with it's sad and sorry
state. jt
