At some point on that continuum is a line that separates growth from regression. At each end of this continuum are two very different characters: one is serving self apart from God, knowingly and deliberately (full blown rebellion) His end is destruction (self destruction) He is "dead already." At the other end the image of Christ, Each is at the END of this continuum. Each is tied to the other, in scriptures (and you know what scripture I am going to quote) i.e. Romans 7:25 and associated scripture and Eph 4: 20-24.
Almost sounds as though I am on my way to answering your question, doesn't it? Well, I know this "continuum" exists. I know that unless and until I am "fully rebellious," the good that God would do is present in my life to some degree. I know, also, that unless and until I have fully achieved the very image of Christ, that which does me personal harm is, likewise, present to some degree.
I believe that I do not know the spiritual state ("saved" or "lost") of any other person other than myself, and that knowledge (my personal destiny) is an act of faith.
In short -- I don't know.
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Perry Locke <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:09:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
John,
How far "NOT RIGHT" is too far "NOT RIGHT"? It seems that here is a continuum of belief in people, ranging from the totally unbelieving atheist to the very devout believing Chrsitian. Or on another scale, from the Satanist to the Christian. Do you think that ALL will be saved regardless of how "NOT RIGHT" they are? Where will the line be drawn? There is no "almost saved", or "saved a little", or "saved more than me"...there is only saved and unsaved. What will detrmine where the line will be drawn? Can you know on which side of the line you fall? Can you be deceived into thinking that you are on the "RIGHT" side of the line when, indeed, you are on the "NOT RIGHT" side of the line?
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: < A href="">[email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:39 -0400
>
>
>
>
>I would think that we all choose to believe whatever based upon our view of >the credibility of the "truth source" closest to us in terms of time and >space. I mean, if Blaine was "born a Mormon,' his first source of >"truth" would be his parents. Who's he going to believe -- his parents >or some guy standing cross the street waving underwear. And, by the time >he gets to a free thinking age, he already has such a systematize faith >that little will prevail against it. THAT'S NORMAL. Blaine may or not >believe this -- but -------------------- THANK GOD WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE >RIGHT.
>
>JD
>
& gt;-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:20:26 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
>
>
>Lance, what I also hear is that we all choose to believe what we want to >believe, regardless of the facts, or lack thereof.
>
> However, I believe that when a grain of truth is revealed, but not >immediately accepted, a cognitive dissonance is created and stored away >that must eventually be resolved. This, I believe, is why people that, for >example, become a Christian after denying the evidence for years, suddenly >believe it ALL. The act of becoming a Christian resolves all of the small >dissonant ideas they have stored away. So, I beleive that if Blaine ever >decides to becom e a Christian, thus resolving all of the small dissonant >facts he has stored away, he will be one of the greatest Christians ever. >That is to say, when he takes all of the energy he expends defending a >false religion, and turns it toward defending the truth, watch out!
>
> I speak from my own experience. I got to the point where I could no >longer deny the truth. All of the lies I told myself about why I could not >accept Christianity vanished literally overnight, and all of the truths I >had learned through the years, but not accepted, all became a viable part >of my belief.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk ] Hill Cumorah
> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:05:42 -0400
> >
> >Even if, if, if, if you were absolutely correct, CPL, you know that he is
> >NOT prepared to acknowledge this. Please read my post on 'belief'. You >are
> >as likely to be posting as a Mormon as he (Blaine) is likely to be >posting
> >as what you deem to be a 'christian'.
> >
> >If there is present on TT a six day young earth creationist, can you or
> >anyone on TT imagine them forfeiting this 'belief' in order to believe
> >'teleological evolutionism'? Impossible? No! Likely? Snowball's chance...
> >
> >
> >----- Original Me ssage -----
> >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: June 13, 2005 08:55
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> >
> >
> > > Baline,
> > >
> > > Sometimes it is right to doubt. But, when shown the evidence, even
> >Thomas
> > > believed. We will only know for sure when you present the facts and >let
> >me
> > > evaluate them. The point is that if there is no real evidence, then >the
> > > scripture is most likely not related to the anecdote at all.
> > >
> > > Blaine, are you willing to admit that since there is no real > >evidence,
> > > then it is possible that the scripture is not related to the anecdote?
> > >
> > > Perry
> > >
> > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> > > >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:55:37 EDT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Blaine: Probably nothing that would satisfy your "Doubting Thomas"
> > > >attitude, Perry.
> > > >
> > > >In a message dated 6/11/2005 10:34:43 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:& nbsp;
> > > >
> > > >Yes, I have heard that story, but that does not relate the event to > >the
> > > >Isaiah passage. We still have two separate stories with no ties other
> >than
> > > >some common words. One from scripture, one anecdotal. Do you have
> >anything
> > > >that actually links them?
> > > >
> > > >Perry
> > > >
> > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > >To: [email protected]
> > > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> > > > >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:28:12 EDT
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Blaine: Have you not read/heard the story of Martin Harris taking
> > > > >characters copied from the plates (by JS) to Professor Charles
> >Anthon,
> > > >and
> > > >
> > > > >first
> > > > >being told they were true characters, but then being rebuffed by > >him
> > > >when
> > > > >he was
> > > > >told a portion of the plates were sealed, and therefore could not > >be
> > > > >dellivered to him for translation?
> > > > >
> > > > >In a message dated 6/11/2005 8:18:53 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >Blaine wrote: The sealed portion has yet to be translated, but
> > > >contains
> > > > >"the vision of all." see Isaiah. 29:11
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you >may
> >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> >http://www.InnGlory.org
> > >
> > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
> >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> >
> >
> >----------
> >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to < A href="">[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
How far "NOT RIGHT" is too far "NOT RIGHT"? It seems that here is a continuum of belief in people, ranging from the totally unbelieving atheist to the very devout believing Chrsitian. Or on another scale, from the Satanist to the Christian. Do you think that ALL will be saved regardless of how "NOT RIGHT" they are? Where will the line be drawn? There is no "almost saved", or "saved a little", or "saved more than me"...there is only saved and unsaved. What will detrmine where the line will be drawn? Can you know on which side of the line you fall? Can you be deceived into thinking that you are on the "RIGHT" side of the line when, indeed, you are on the "NOT RIGHT" side of the line?
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: < A href="">[email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:39 -0400
>
>
>
>
>I would think that we all choose to believe whatever based upon our view of >the credibility of the "truth source" closest to us in terms of time and >space. I mean, if Blaine was "born a Mormon,' his first source of >"truth" would be his parents. Who's he going to believe -- his parents >or some guy standing cross the street waving underwear. And, by the time >he gets to a free thinking age, he already has such a systematize faith >that little will prevail against it. THAT'S NORMAL. Blaine may or not >believe this -- but -------------------- THANK GOD WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE >RIGHT.
>
>JD
>
& gt;-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:20:26 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
>
>
>Lance, what I also hear is that we all choose to believe what we want to >believe, regardless of the facts, or lack thereof.
>
> However, I believe that when a grain of truth is revealed, but not >immediately accepted, a cognitive dissonance is created and stored away >that must eventually be resolved. This, I believe, is why people that, for >example, become a Christian after denying the evidence for years, suddenly >believe it ALL. The act of becoming a Christian resolves all of the small >dissonant ideas they have stored away. So, I beleive that if Blaine ever >decides to becom e a Christian, thus resolving all of the small dissonant >facts he has stored away, he will be one of the greatest Christians ever. >That is to say, when he takes all of the energy he expends defending a >false religion, and turns it toward defending the truth, watch out!
>
> I speak from my own experience. I got to the point where I could no >longer deny the truth. All of the lies I told myself about why I could not >accept Christianity vanished literally overnight, and all of the truths I >had learned through the years, but not accepted, all became a viable part >of my belief.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk ] Hill Cumorah
> >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:05:42 -0400
> >
> >Even if, if, if, if you were absolutely correct, CPL, you know that he is
> >NOT prepared to acknowledge this. Please read my post on 'belief'. You >are
> >as likely to be posting as a Mormon as he (Blaine) is likely to be >posting
> >as what you deem to be a 'christian'.
> >
> >If there is present on TT a six day young earth creationist, can you or
> >anyone on TT imagine them forfeiting this 'belief' in order to believe
> >'teleological evolutionism'? Impossible? No! Likely? Snowball's chance...
> >
> >
> >----- Original Me ssage -----
> >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: June 13, 2005 08:55
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> >
> >
> > > Baline,
> > >
> > > Sometimes it is right to doubt. But, when shown the evidence, even
> >Thomas
> > > believed. We will only know for sure when you present the facts and >let
> >me
> > > evaluate them. The point is that if there is no real evidence, then >the
> > > scripture is most likely not related to the anecdote at all.
> > >
> > > Blaine, are you willing to admit that since there is no real > >evidence,
> > > then it is possible that the scripture is not related to the anecdote?
> > >
> > > Perry
> > >
> > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> > > >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:55:37 EDT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Blaine: Probably nothing that would satisfy your "Doubting Thomas"
> > > >attitude, Perry.
> > > >
> > > >In a message dated 6/11/2005 10:34:43 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:& nbsp;
> > > >
> > > >Yes, I have heard that story, but that does not relate the event to > >the
> > > >Isaiah passage. We still have two separate stories with no ties other
> >than
> > > >some common words. One from scripture, one anecdotal. Do you have
> >anything
> > > >that actually links them?
> > > >
> > > >Perry
> > > >
> > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > >To: [email protected]
> > > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hill Cumorah
> > > > >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:28:12 EDT
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Blaine: Have you not read/heard the story of Martin Harris taking
> > > > >characters copied from the plates (by JS) to Professor Charles
> >Anthon,
> > > >and
> > > >
> > > > >first
> > > > >being told they were true characters, but then being rebuffed by > >him
> > > >when
> > > > >he was
> > > > >told a portion of the plates were sealed, and therefore could not > >be
> > > > >dellivered to him for translation?
> > > > >
> > > > >In a message dated 6/11/2005 8:18:53 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >Blaine wrote: The sealed portion has yet to be translated, but
> > > >contains
> > > > >"the vision of all." see Isaiah. 29:11
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you >may
> >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> >http://www.InnGlory.org
> > >
> > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
> >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> >
> >
> >----------
> >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to < A href="">[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
