DAVEH: Well, you have put yourself in a precarious position, Perry. On
one hand you criticize me for explaining what I believe when asked. And
when I do directly such questions, you often times berate
them.....leaving me little reason to share my beliefs with you.
In an apparent order to discredit my explanations you try to
re-explain what I believe to other TTers, in an attempt to make it sound
goofy, as Terry put it. Why do you not instead simply tell Terry to ask
me about specific beliefs that you presume to be LDS doctrines. Then
you won't have to qualify your possible ignorance for not being positive
about them, and I can respond to Terry's questions without having my
beliefs denigrated by one who is openly antagonistic to my beliefs.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
This is what I have learned. I believe it to be so, but I may not
have all accurately stated all of the details. You often tell me I am
wrong, that I don't understand it as a mormon would, and I should ask
a mormon if I want to know what mormons believe. I did as you
requested, but instead of correcting me, if indeed I have erred, you
try to make a big deal out of it. If I have not erred, no foul? If I
have, then correct me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:52:19 -0700
* I am not positive about a couple of them*
DAVEH: Then why would you try to teach somebody else something you
are not sure about, Perry? Do you think passing on false or
misunderstood information helps others understand truth?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Terry, it is a lot more convoluted that you are imagining. Here are
perhaps a couple of points that have not been revealed to you.* I am
not positive about a couple of them*, so Dave, feel free to correct
me if I understand this incorrectly. (If you don't, I am sure Blaine
will :-)
- they will be able to have multiple wives, maybe thousands, and a
man can be sealed to more than one woman on earth, and more women
can seal themselves to them after they have died.
- they will procreate with these wives to populate their own
planets, just like their current god did with his thousands of
spirit wives to produce the offspring of the earth, meaning you,
Terry, were first a spiritual offspring, and brother of satan and
jesus, of the mormon god and one of thousands of Mrs. gods, and then
were inserted into a baby at some point in your human existence,
- unmarried women on earth can seal themselves to deceased mormon
men (or at least to one).
- mormon women must be called from the graves by the man to whom
they are sealed if they expect to get resurrected to the third
heaven, provided they have fulfilled all of the reauired works,
called temple ordnances.
Amusing anecdote: My mother-in-law, who is a mormon, became one long
after she had divorced my father-in-law (and both of these events
were long before I met either one of them). He knows nothing about
mormonism, but found out from a friend that if a man and woman are
sealed on earth, they live together eternally after death. Once he
found this out he drove over to her house yelling at her that she
better not seal herself to him because he did not want to spend the
rest of eternity with her!
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:48:58 -0700
Terry Clifton wrote:
I understand your answer, Dave, but I have problems with it. What
brought about this comment by Jesus was the possibility of more
than one wife here on earth. If your first wife dies, you are
free to take another. We know that God's plan for man has always
been one man for one woman for life.
DAVEH: Upon what basis do you draw that conclusion, Terry? As you
must know, many of the Lord's prophets had more than one wife. Do
you think his servants, the prophets, did not understand God's plan?
If that is His desire here, then it would be His desire in Heaven,
*if *there were marriages in Heaven. That creates a problem for
the man that has married two or more women who preceeded him in
death. The problem being, who would be the one wife?
DAVEH: Had they been sealed (bound) on earth by somebody who had
the keys as did Peter (Mt 16:19), all would have been sealed
(bound) in heaven.
Because of this, Jesus has proclaimed that there will be no
marriage in Heaven,
DAVEH: Read vs 30 again.........
*For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in
marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.*
.......I would understand that to mean marriage will not take place
in heaven. It does not say that marriage would not exist in
heaven. I think you are reading something into Scripture that it
does not say, Terry.
except the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, the King, Jesus
Himself. It solves the problem of multiple marriages and it
solves the problem of what to do with a believer whose spouse has
gone to Hell while the believer entered Heaven. No husband? No
problem. We are married to the Lord.
DAVEH: Seems to me that literally taking it the way you are, it
would create another major problem. Do you want to be married to a
male, Terry? Why do many Christians fight tooth and nail against
same sex marriage in this life, only to believe they are going to
be married to a same sex partner after this life? Seems pretty
screwy to me, unless one views it from my perspective.
I think you misunderstand what the Bible teaches concerning this.
Your view simply presents too many obstacles to be workable.
DAVEH: It works for me, Terry. If God had no problem with
polygamous marriages in the OT, I don't argue that marriage is only
for one man/woman. If the Lord tells us we can seal up things here
on earth that will last past the barrier we call death, I feel no
reason to doubt that can apply to marriage and hesitate to deny the
power of God grant us that power.
As a Mormon, I believe families can be forever. It is a main
doctrine of our Church. When Protestants (and some TTers) tell me
that sexual identity does not exist in heaven, and that loving
family relationships end upon death, I've got to wonder why God
brought us to earth, gave us the the challenge of having a loving
and secure family only to rip it all apart before we enter
heaven. Doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for your thoughts though.
DAVEH: You are welcome, Terry.
Terry
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: And good afternoon to you, Brother Terry! :-)
Let me quote vs 30......
*For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in
marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.*
........Note that he is talking about during/after the
resurrection period, folks will will not have the opportunity to
get married. It does not address those who have been married and
sealed in mortality for eternity. That may not make much sense,
so let me elaborate a bit....
Terry....when you were married, did the minister use language
similar to the familiar "to death do you part" that is commonly
used in many Christian marriages? If so, does that seem to you
to be a divorce clause of sorts? IOW, upon your spouse's demise,
do you not become unmarried, and are thereby eligible to marry
again if you so choose? Assuming you've been nodding your head
in agreement with me so far, then your earthly marriage was for
time only, and not applicable to life after death....agreed?
From my LDS perspective, marriages can be of two
types....*time only while in mortality*, as I discussed above and
secondly for *time and eternity,* meaning those who enter into
such a covenant are sealed together beyond death. Their
matrimonial relationship does not end upon the death of either
spouse, but continues to be recognized beyond the veil of death.
We believe that the Lord gave power to some of his servants
(like Peter) to form eternal unions on earth........
*And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
* Mt 16:19
......that will be recognized in heaven and will extend beyond
the barrier we call death. As Jesus was explaining in the
passages you mentioned, such sealings won't be in effect in
heaven if they don't first happen on earth.
Does that answer your question, Terry?
Note to Perry: Does my above explanation draw another
criticism for preaching Mormonism?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Good morning, mister Hansen. I have a serious request. Can you
explain to me how Mormons will have wives in Heaven when Jesus
plainly teaches in Matt 22:29-33 that there will be no marriages
in Heaven, no husbands and wives?
Thank you.
Terry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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