DaveH makes a good point here, Perry. Care to explain yourself?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: June 20, 2005 00:41 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy > DAVEH: Well, you have put yourself in a precarious position, Perry. On > one hand you criticize me for explaining what I believe when asked. And > when I do directly such questions, you often times berate > them.....leaving me little reason to share my beliefs with you. > > In an apparent order to discredit my explanations you try to > re-explain what I believe to other TTers, in an attempt to make it sound > goofy, as Terry put it. Why do you not instead simply tell Terry to ask > me about specific beliefs that you presume to be LDS doctrines. Then > you won't have to qualify your possible ignorance for not being positive > about them, and I can respond to Terry's questions without having my > beliefs denigrated by one who is openly antagonistic to my beliefs. > > Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > Dave, > > > > This is what I have learned. I believe it to be so, but I may not > > have all accurately stated all of the details. You often tell me I am > > wrong, that I don't understand it as a mormon would, and I should ask > > a mormon if I want to know what mormons believe. I did as you > > requested, but instead of correcting me, if indeed I have erred, you > > try to make a big deal out of it. If I have not erred, no foul? If I > > have, then correct me. > > > > Perry > > > >> From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Reply-To: [email protected] > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy > >> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:52:19 -0700 > >> > >> * I am not positive about a couple of them* > >> > >> DAVEH: Then why would you try to teach somebody else something you > >> are not sure about, Perry? Do you think passing on false or > >> misunderstood information helps others understand truth? > >> > >> Charles Perry Locke wrote: > >> > >>> Terry, it is a lot more convoluted that you are imagining. Here are > >>> perhaps a couple of points that have not been revealed to you.* I am > >>> not positive about a couple of them*, so Dave, feel free to correct > >>> me if I understand this incorrectly. (If you don't, I am sure Blaine > >>> will :-) > >>> > >>> - they will be able to have multiple wives, maybe thousands, and a > >>> man can be sealed to more than one woman on earth, and more women > >>> can seal themselves to them after they have died. > >>> > >>> - they will procreate with these wives to populate their own > >>> planets, just like their current god did with his thousands of > >>> spirit wives to produce the offspring of the earth, meaning you, > >>> Terry, were first a spiritual offspring, and brother of satan and > >>> jesus, of the mormon god and one of thousands of Mrs. gods, and then > >>> were inserted into a baby at some point in your human existence, > >>> > >>> - unmarried women on earth can seal themselves to deceased mormon > >>> men (or at least to one). > >>> > >>> - mormon women must be called from the graves by the man to whom > >>> they are sealed if they expect to get resurrected to the third > >>> heaven, provided they have fulfilled all of the reauired works, > >>> called temple ordnances. > >>> > >>> Amusing anecdote: My mother-in-law, who is a mormon, became one long > >>> after she had divorced my father-in-law (and both of these events > >>> were long before I met either one of them). He knows nothing about > >>> mormonism, but found out from a friend that if a man and woman are > >>> sealed on earth, they live together eternally after death. Once he > >>> found this out he drove over to her house yelling at her that she > >>> better not seal herself to him because he did not want to spend the > >>> rest of eternity with her! > >>> > >>> Perry > >>> > >>>> From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>> Reply-To: [email protected] > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy > >>>> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:48:58 -0700 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Terry Clifton wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I understand your answer, Dave, but I have problems with it. What > >>>>> brought about this comment by Jesus was the possibility of more > >>>>> than one wife here on earth. If your first wife dies, you are > >>>>> free to take another. We know that God's plan for man has always > >>>>> been one man for one woman for life. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DAVEH: Upon what basis do you draw that conclusion, Terry? As you > >>>> must know, many of the Lord's prophets had more than one wife. Do > >>>> you think his servants, the prophets, did not understand God's plan? > >>>> > >>>>> If that is His desire here, then it would be His desire in Heaven, > >>>>> *if *there were marriages in Heaven. That creates a problem for > >>>>> the man that has married two or more women who preceeded him in > >>>>> death. The problem being, who would be the one wife? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DAVEH: Had they been sealed (bound) on earth by somebody who had > >>>> the keys as did Peter (Mt 16:19), all would have been sealed > >>>> (bound) in heaven. > >>>> > >>>>> Because of this, Jesus has proclaimed that there will be no > >>>>> marriage in Heaven, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DAVEH: Read vs 30 again......... > >>>> > >>>> *For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in > >>>> marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.* > >>>> > >>>> .......I would understand that to mean marriage will not take place > >>>> in heaven. It does not say that marriage would not exist in > >>>> heaven. I think you are reading something into Scripture that it > >>>> does not say, Terry. > >>>> > >>>>> except the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, the King, Jesus > >>>>> Himself. It solves the problem of multiple marriages and it > >>>>> solves the problem of what to do with a believer whose spouse has > >>>>> gone to Hell while the believer entered Heaven. No husband? No > >>>>> problem. We are married to the Lord. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DAVEH: Seems to me that literally taking it the way you are, it > >>>> would create another major problem. Do you want to be married to a > >>>> male, Terry? Why do many Christians fight tooth and nail against > >>>> same sex marriage in this life, only to believe they are going to > >>>> be married to a same sex partner after this life? Seems pretty > >>>> screwy to me, unless one views it from my perspective. > >>>> > >>>>> I think you misunderstand what the Bible teaches concerning this. > >>>>> Your view simply presents too many obstacles to be workable. > >>>>> > >>>> DAVEH: It works for me, Terry. If God had no problem with > >>>> polygamous marriages in the OT, I don't argue that marriage is only > >>>> for one man/woman. If the Lord tells us we can seal up things here > >>>> on earth that will last past the barrier we call death, I feel no > >>>> reason to doubt that can apply to marriage and hesitate to deny the > >>>> power of God grant us that power. > >>>> > >>>> As a Mormon, I believe families can be forever. It is a main > >>>> doctrine of our Church. When Protestants (and some TTers) tell me > >>>> that sexual identity does not exist in heaven, and that loving > >>>> family relationships end upon death, I've got to wonder why God > >>>> brought us to earth, gave us the the challenge of having a loving > >>>> and secure family only to rip it all apart before we enter > >>>> heaven. Doesn't make sense to me. > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks for your thoughts though. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DAVEH: You are welcome, Terry. > >>>> > >>>>> Terry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dave Hansen wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> DAVEH: And good afternoon to you, Brother Terry! :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Let me quote vs 30...... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> *For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in > >>>>>> marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.* > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ........Note that he is talking about during/after the > >>>>>> resurrection period, folks will will not have the opportunity to > >>>>>> get married. It does not address those who have been married and > >>>>>> sealed in mortality for eternity. That may not make much sense, > >>>>>> so let me elaborate a bit.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Terry....when you were married, did the minister use language > >>>>>> similar to the familiar "to death do you part" that is commonly > >>>>>> used in many Christian marriages? If so, does that seem to you > >>>>>> to be a divorce clause of sorts? IOW, upon your spouse's demise, > >>>>>> do you not become unmarried, and are thereby eligible to marry > >>>>>> again if you so choose? Assuming you've been nodding your head > >>>>>> in agreement with me so far, then your earthly marriage was for > >>>>>> time only, and not applicable to life after death....agreed? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From my LDS perspective, marriages can be of two > >>>>>> types....*time only while in mortality*, as I discussed above and > >>>>>> secondly for *time and eternity,* meaning those who enter into > >>>>>> such a covenant are sealed together beyond death. Their > >>>>>> matrimonial relationship does not end upon the death of either > >>>>>> spouse, but continues to be recognized beyond the veil of death. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We believe that the Lord gave power to some of his servants > >>>>>> (like Peter) to form eternal unions on earth........ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> *And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and > >>>>>> whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and > >>>>>> whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. > >>>>>> * Mt 16:19 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ......that will be recognized in heaven and will extend beyond > >>>>>> the barrier we call death. As Jesus was explaining in the > >>>>>> passages you mentioned, such sealings won't be in effect in > >>>>>> heaven if they don't first happen on earth. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does that answer your question, Terry? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Note to Perry: Does my above explanation draw another > >>>>>> criticism for preaching Mormonism? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Terry Clifton wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Good morning, mister Hansen. I have a serious request. Can you > >>>>>>> explain to me how Mormons will have wives in Heaven when Jesus > >>>>>>> plainly teaches in Matt 22:29-33 that there will be no marriages > >>>>>>> in Heaven, no husbands and wives? > >>>>>>> Thank you. > >>>>>>> Terry > >>>>>>> > >>> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Hansen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.langlitz.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If you wish to receive > things I find interesting, > I maintain six email lists... > JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, > STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
