From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:52:15 -0400
DaveH makes a good point here, Perry. Care to explain yourself?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: June 20, 2005 00:41
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
> DAVEH: Well, you have put yourself in a precarious position, Perry. On
> one hand you criticize me for explaining what I believe when asked. And
> when I do directly such questions, you often times berate
> them.....leaving me little reason to share my beliefs with you.
>
> In an apparent order to discredit my explanations you try to
> re-explain what I believe to other TTers, in an attempt to make it sound
> goofy, as Terry put it. Why do you not instead simply tell Terry to ask
> me about specific beliefs that you presume to be LDS doctrines. Then
> you won't have to qualify your possible ignorance for not being positive
> about them, and I can respond to Terry's questions without having my
> beliefs denigrated by one who is openly antagonistic to my beliefs.
>
> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > This is what I have learned. I believe it to be so, but I may not
> > have all accurately stated all of the details. You often tell me I am
> > wrong, that I don't understand it as a mormon would, and I should ask
> > a mormon if I want to know what mormons believe. I did as you
> > requested, but instead of correcting me, if indeed I have erred, you
> > try to make a big deal out of it. If I have not erred, no foul? If I
> > have, then correct me.
> >
> > Perry
> >
> >> From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: [email protected]
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
> >> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:52:19 -0700
> >>
> >> * I am not positive about a couple of them*
> >>
> >> DAVEH: Then why would you try to teach somebody else something you
> >> are not sure about, Perry? Do you think passing on false or
> >> misunderstood information helps others understand truth?
> >>
> >> Charles Perry Locke wrote:
> >>
> >>> Terry, it is a lot more convoluted that you are imagining. Here are
> >>> perhaps a couple of points that have not been revealed to you.* I am
> >>> not positive about a couple of them*, so Dave, feel free to correct
> >>> me if I understand this incorrectly. (If you don't, I am sure Blaine
> >>> will :-)
> >>>
> >>> - they will be able to have multiple wives, maybe thousands, and a
> >>> man can be sealed to more than one woman on earth, and more women
> >>> can seal themselves to them after they have died.
> >>>
> >>> - they will procreate with these wives to populate their own
> >>> planets, just like their current god did with his thousands of
> >>> spirit wives to produce the offspring of the earth, meaning you,
> >>> Terry, were first a spiritual offspring, and brother of satan and
> >>> jesus, of the mormon god and one of thousands of Mrs. gods, and then
> >>> were inserted into a baby at some point in your human existence,
> >>>
> >>> - unmarried women on earth can seal themselves to deceased mormon
> >>> men (or at least to one).
> >>>
> >>> - mormon women must be called from the graves by the man to whom
> >>> they are sealed if they expect to get resurrected to the third
> >>> heaven, provided they have fulfilled all of the reauired works,
> >>> called temple ordnances.
> >>>
> >>> Amusing anecdote: My mother-in-law, who is a mormon, became one long
> >>> after she had divorced my father-in-law (and both of these events
> >>> were long before I met either one of them). He knows nothing about
> >>> mormonism, but found out from a friend that if a man and woman are
> >>> sealed on earth, they live together eternally after death. Once he
> >>> found this out he drove over to her house yelling at her that she
> >>> better not seal herself to him because he did not want to spend the
> >>> rest of eternity with her!
> >>>
> >>> Perry
> >>>
> >>>> From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>> Reply-To: [email protected]
> >>>> To: [email protected]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Seeming inconsistancy
> >>>> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:48:58 -0700
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Terry Clifton wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I understand your answer, Dave, but I have problems with it. What
> >>>>> brought about this comment by Jesus was the possibility of more
> >>>>> than one wife here on earth. If your first wife dies, you are
> >>>>> free to take another. We know that God's plan for man has always
> >>>>> been one man for one woman for life.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: Upon what basis do you draw that conclusion, Terry? As you
> >>>> must know, many of the Lord's prophets had more than one wife. Do
> >>>> you think his servants, the prophets, did not understand God's
plan?
> >>>>
> >>>>> If that is His desire here, then it would be His desire in Heaven,
> >>>>> *if *there were marriages in Heaven. That creates a problem for
> >>>>> the man that has married two or more women who preceeded him in
> >>>>> death. The problem being, who would be the one wife?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: Had they been sealed (bound) on earth by somebody who had
> >>>> the keys as did Peter (Mt 16:19), all would have been sealed
> >>>> (bound) in heaven.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Because of this, Jesus has proclaimed that there will be no
> >>>>> marriage in Heaven,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: Read vs 30 again.........
> >>>>
> >>>> *For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in
> >>>> marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.*
> >>>>
> >>>> .......I would understand that to mean marriage will not take place
> >>>> in heaven. It does not say that marriage would not exist in
> >>>> heaven. I think you are reading something into Scripture that it
> >>>> does not say, Terry.
> >>>>
> >>>>> except the marriage of the Church to the Lamb, the King, Jesus
> >>>>> Himself. It solves the problem of multiple marriages and it
> >>>>> solves the problem of what to do with a believer whose spouse has
> >>>>> gone to Hell while the believer entered Heaven. No husband? No
> >>>>> problem. We are married to the Lord.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: Seems to me that literally taking it the way you are, it
> >>>> would create another major problem. Do you want to be married to a
> >>>> male, Terry? Why do many Christians fight tooth and nail against
> >>>> same sex marriage in this life, only to believe they are going to
> >>>> be married to a same sex partner after this life? Seems pretty
> >>>> screwy to me, unless one views it from my perspective.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think you misunderstand what the Bible teaches concerning this.
> >>>>> Your view simply presents too many obstacles to be workable.
> >>>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: It works for me, Terry. If God had no problem with
> >>>> polygamous marriages in the OT, I don't argue that marriage is only
> >>>> for one man/woman. If the Lord tells us we can seal up things here
> >>>> on earth that will last past the barrier we call death, I feel no
> >>>> reason to doubt that can apply to marriage and hesitate to deny the
> >>>> power of God grant us that power.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a Mormon, I believe families can be forever. It is a main
> >>>> doctrine of our Church. When Protestants (and some TTers) tell me
> >>>> that sexual identity does not exist in heaven, and that loving
> >>>> family relationships end upon death, I've got to wonder why God
> >>>> brought us to earth, gave us the the challenge of having a loving
> >>>> and secure family only to rip it all apart before we enter
> >>>> heaven. Doesn't make sense to me.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughts though.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> DAVEH: You are welcome, Terry.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Terry
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave Hansen wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> DAVEH: And good afternoon to you, Brother Terry! :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let me quote vs 30......
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in
> >>>>>> marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.*
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ........Note that he is talking about during/after the
> >>>>>> resurrection period, folks will will not have the opportunity to
> >>>>>> get married. It does not address those who have been married and
> >>>>>> sealed in mortality for eternity. That may not make much sense,
> >>>>>> so let me elaborate a bit....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Terry....when you were married, did the minister use language
> >>>>>> similar to the familiar "to death do you part" that is commonly
> >>>>>> used in many Christian marriages? If so, does that seem to you
> >>>>>> to be a divorce clause of sorts? IOW, upon your spouse's demise,
> >>>>>> do you not become unmarried, and are thereby eligible to marry
> >>>>>> again if you so choose? Assuming you've been nodding your head
> >>>>>> in agreement with me so far, then your earthly marriage was for
> >>>>>> time only, and not applicable to life after death....agreed?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From my LDS perspective, marriages can be of two
> >>>>>> types....*time only while in mortality*, as I discussed above and
> >>>>>> secondly for *time and eternity,* meaning those who enter into
> >>>>>> such a covenant are sealed together beyond death. Their
> >>>>>> matrimonial relationship does not end upon the death of either
> >>>>>> spouse, but continues to be recognized beyond the veil of death.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We believe that the Lord gave power to some of his servants
> >>>>>> (like Peter) to form eternal unions on earth........
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
> >>>>>> whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
> >>>>>> whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
> >>>>>> * Mt 16:19
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ......that will be recognized in heaven and will extend beyond
> >>>>>> the barrier we call death. As Jesus was explaining in the
> >>>>>> passages you mentioned, such sealings won't be in effect in
> >>>>>> heaven if they don't first happen on earth.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does that answer your question, Terry?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Note to Perry: Does my above explanation draw another
> >>>>>> criticism for preaching Mormonism?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Terry Clifton wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Good morning, mister Hansen. I have a serious request. Can you
> >>>>>>> explain to me how Mormons will have wives in Heaven when Jesus
> >>>>>>> plainly teaches in Matt 22:29-33 that there will be no marriages
> >>>>>>> in Heaven, no husbands and wives?
> >>>>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>>> Terry
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dave Hansen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.langlitz.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> If you wish to receive
> things I find interesting,
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>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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