Re: [TruthTalk] liberal churches are dying (dead!)

[Judy Taylor]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not much different than what we find as typical in the First Church.   The condemnation that we are "saved" from is that which we bring into our own lives.    jt: Where in scripture does it say we are "saved from condemnation?"  The wrath of God is what we are saved from (see Rom 5:9) and this is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.    JD: You believe in an angry God.   I believe in an angry Father.  Big difference.   But more to the point, Romans 8:1 presents to us a  deliverance from "condemnation."    jt: God is not anyone's Father until they have been born of the Spirit or born again and are found in Christ the Son; Romans 8:1 only promises deliverance to those who "walk after the Spirit" and do not fulfill the lust of the flesh (KJV)    JD: I believe that the creation process begun in the Garden was to be completed in each of us as the Spirit indwells, placing us into God's community and into the community of those being saved  -  all as a result of the foundational work He committed to on our behalf with His birth, life , death nd resurrection  (commonly called "incarnation")   jt: Creation is/was not a "process" JD. God spoke the worlds into existence.  He just says "let there be" and "there is" The first man Adam wasn't just half baked before the fall. He was complete and held the "image of God" which he lost when he fell. Also where do you get that the cross is a 'foundational work?'  He is a "once for all sacrifice" and the  cross is a "finished work"    JD: I do not agree with any of this.   Is there one aspect of our disagreement you would prefer to discuss?  We were all created in of the image of God  -  all of us.     jt: What kind of wisdom do you base this on?  The wisdom of God tells us in Genesis 5:3 that "Adam lived 130 years and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth"  Now Adam's fallen likeness and image was not like God's at all.  Also we are not "created" beings JD.  We are (all of us) born through procreation with an inheritance of sin going back for generations.     JD: I do not believe in original sin.  That God made all of us (through procreation or whatever) in His image is my point.   See Gen 9:6.   jt: Genesis 9:6 is a warning of judgement for shedding blood; it is not a statement of fact and it should be understood in light of Genesis 5:3.  Yes man was originally made in God's image and Noah had found grace enough to come through the flood but by Gen 9:20,21 he had planted a vineyard and is getting drunk.  Are you going to tell me that this is the image of God acting out here?   JD: None of us have arrived.  But our desired destiny  (image of God) has been clearly demonstrated in the biblical message and in the life of Christ.    jt: Yes the goal of the instruction is love from a pure heart which is us being conformed to the image of Christ.   JD: As long as the church does not compromise the message of hope and righteousness,  the presence of all them damned sinners is a good thing,  right?   We are encouraged with these words, "ye who are spiritual, help them who are weak."   jt: It should be understood that the "weak" may be baby believers and not overcoming in their lives yet - but they are born again believers rather than those you call "damned sinners".  A Church full of them would not be a good thing.    JD: You think our churches are not "full of them?"    jt: I didn't say that did I?   That works best when they (the weak ones) are in the same room, same fellowship, hearing the same message of grace and righteousness.   The church will die in this day and time if it cannot learn to draw the carnal and the worldly into its influence.  And the church will rot on the vine if it cannot influence without the compromise of the Message.   JD   jt: Without repentance noone is going anywhere; the carnal and worldly can come as they are but they can not stay as they are and continue in grace and the unpruned branch is the one that dies on the vine.  God wants a ppl who look like Him.    jt  I do not deny your first and last sentence.  Your transitional thought misses the mark, IMO.  Jd   jt: So we disagree on how to get from point A to point B?                   From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:11:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] liberal churches are dying (dead!)     [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Two reasons I can think of:   a praise-worship service that is contemporary and entertaining.   and (2)  a social aspect that is inclusive and tolerant.   Conservative churches that major in the preaching of "truth" and doctrinal correctness and hang with the formal and traditional praise service have a different time in today's market   ("market"  --  you know what I am talking about, right Terry?).     During the civil war era, the "liberal churches" were those who opposed slavery.    JD ======================================================================== ===== I think seeker sensative is the term you are looking for.  In our neighborhood, racism, divorce and remarriage on unbiblical grounds, adultry, crooked business deals and membership in secret organizations are the norm for church members.  The only ones ever put out of the church are preachers who preach the truth.  That is not tolerated.  This is the Bible belt today. Terry                 Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football