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Jt tells JD, along with the rest of us, that '(she)
I believe(s) the way (she does) I do because (she) I see(s) it in the Word
of God.'
Q:May one read OUT of the Word of God that which is
not IN the Word of God to begin with?
Q:May we assume that attendance at some sort of
teaching forum is, at least in part, for the purpose of knowing aright in order
that we might live aright?
Sent: June 23, 2005 05:18
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
It is not my 'thoughts' nor my 'individual musings' that matter in the
least JD. I believe the way I do
because I see it in the Word of God. But then this has never seemed
to make much difference to you
so I am not surprised that you don't get it. jt
Debbie writes: Does she (JudyT) have the same God? If she thinks
the beginning of Jesus was the beginning of the Son, then no.
This is precisely what i hear Judy saying.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
But, alas, this was never my question. God
is sovereign. He exists apart from our thoughts about Him. I
just want someone to give me some insight on how to deal with what I perceive to be Judy's heresy. How important are our individual musings about God and Christ? There is not one person on
this forum who agrees in total with anyone else. At what point do these
disagreements rise to the level activity on our part. At what
point do we become exclusive in a thoughtful and order way?
JD
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 11:16
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
May I respond? First, two cautions:
a) The wideness of God's mercy is a different
question. God's mercy can be infinitely wide even though the gap between
sketches that still qualify as the same Jesus cannot be. The effect of
God's mercy is to reconcile people to himself (who may or may not have a
true idea of Jesus), not to make all Jesuses the same.
b) It's a bit confusing to me to use the name
Jesus (or Christ) in predicating the eternal Sonship. Having missed what went before, may I ask whether this
might also be confusing to Judy? You can't get rid of the humanity
of Jesus. Although Jesus the God-man has no end, and there is NOW no Son
apart from him, he did have a beginning. Therefore it's possible for two
people to believe the same things about Jesus while believing different
things about before Jesus was conceived.
As to those essentials whose absence results in
a different Jesus (since the conversation seems to aim at
establishing this): I'm not certain, but I believe divinity must be
one. If he is only Saviour without being
God, then (among other consequences) salvation is reduced to
fire insurance. The point of salvation is worship. Jesus is to be
worshipped. If he is denied worship, the point of the story is denied, and
it is a different story. Second, I believe
his real and Jewish humanity is essential, since it is as our rep, and more
specifically as the rep of Israel, that he has effected our
reconciliation. A third essential is that he really died, was
really raised, and really ascended--without that, the whole story falls
apart too. If Judy worships Jesus as God, and believes that he is also
a man, of the Jewish people, and that he died, rose, and ascended to
effect our salvation, then I believe she has the same Jesus. Does she have
the same God? If she thinks the beginning of Jesus was the beginning of the
Son, then no.
You could follow each of these out to other
things--for example, could Jesus be the chosen rep of Israel, the Christ, if
he was from the tribe of Benjamin and not Judah? Well, I know my answer would be No, but I recognize
that this is one level removed.
Do you agree? I could, as always, be all
wet.
D
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 6:10
AM
Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Belief
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 06:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
As Rush often says to his callers (in a very
patronising manner which I don't
intend herein) 'you've swerved into something that is utterly profound.'
Speaking only for myself Judy, I believe that the answer to your question
is 'YES AND IT IS NO'. As to our Mormon participants, I believe the answer
is more likely to be an unequivocal 'YES'. How wide is 'THE WIDENESS OF
GOD'S MERCY?' IFF, from God's
perspective, Judy Taylor and David Miller, have misunderstood the matter
of the 'eternal sonshiip' of the
second Person of the Trinity and, IFF, when it arises in conversation,
they teach it.........well.....shall we go on?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 05:53
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Belief
Lance, in view of our discussion yesterday -
would you say that you and I believe in a different Jesus?
Still waiting ... judyt
Please Dave, read Perry's post of
yesterday then, answer my question. Would you say, in lieu of Perry's
'list' that we (you and I) believe in a different Jesus? IMO Perry is quite correct in those
distinctions he points out.
DAVEH: No, I do not recall saying that.
However, I believe we all are viewing the same Jesus, but have
different perspectives on what we see. The Jesus I believe in
the same one found in the Bible which is the same one you believe as
you read about him in the Bible. That does not mean we both
view him the same way. Does that make sense,
Lance?
Lance Muir wrote:
Have you said that
their's is a 'different' Jesus?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 21, 2005 00:55
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not
upon me to define the Jesus I believe in, but rather it is on
the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the
Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
Lance Muir wrote:
DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in a
conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to
build upon that which has been said previously.According to
you THE JESUS TO BE
BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN
MORMON TEACHING. Is this
so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et al is
a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my
point)What, IYO, are the
eternal consequenses for
non-Mormons?
Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the opportunity of fully
answering and, explaining.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 19, 2005 23:02
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in
Jesus. Therefore can we conclude that you've
made the judgment rather than God?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
He
will!
He Has!
JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he
that believeth not is
condemned already
DAVEH:
I fully understand that, Perry. But I'd feel more
comfortable
letting God make that judgment than
you.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
David,
>
> Romans 10:9,10 : That if thou
shalt confess with
thy mouth the Lord
> Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
raised him from
> the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with
the heart man believeth unto
> righteousness; and
with the mouth confession is made unto
salvation.
>
> But, as I have stated before,
the right jesus and
right god must be
> at the center of one's faith.
I am not just harassing you, Dave, I
> honestly
do believe that the mormons worship false
gods.
>
> Perry
>
>> From:
Dave Hansen
>>
Reply-To: [email protected]
>>
To: [email protected]
>>
Subject: [TruthTalk] Belief
>> Date: Sun, 19
Jun 2005 00:16:42 -0700
>>
>> DAVEH:
Yeah........Pretty quiet on TT tonight..
>>
>> Do you
believe that those who believe in Jesus are saved, as
I've
>> heard many Christians proclaim? If
belief is inadequate, what else
>> is needed,
Perry?
>>
>> Charles Perry Locke
wrote:
>>
>>> Dave, this is great.
Midnight, just me and you on TT, mano y mano,
>>> so to speak
:-)
>>>
>>> I guess I am biased
in that way, because both you and Blaine admit
>>> to following the christ and jesus of mormonism, so it is my opinion
>>> that you are lost since I believe that
they are false gods. If I
>>> thought that
you guys were saved in spite of the teachings of the
>>> mormon church I would not be spending so
much time exposing the
>>> false nature of
the mormon church to
you.
>>>
>>> But, the bottom
line is that God makes that ultimate decision, not
I.
>>>
>>>
Perry
>>>
>>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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