From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:12:51 -0400
Assuming we have a correct understanding of Jesus and the Mormons don't,
then if on that basis alone we are saved and they aren't, it is our
understanding which has saved us. Like Bill (in a recent post), I can't
hold with that.
But the question was different, it was whether the actual object of my
faith/belief (putting myself in the place of a Mormon) can still be the
real Jesus even if I have so much wrong information about him. It doesn't
seem impossible, given analogies one could invent: if I am blind and think
the surgeon is a Sasquatch, but I still lie down on the operating table
with full confidence, am I trusting the surgeon? The quesiont cannot be
just about what's in our heads and what's out there. With Jesus it is a
matter of taking active steps, and him doing stuff to us. But is it best
characterized as a one-shot deal, or a relationship that develops? And if
the latter, then maybe the proper question is, Can this relationship, this
interaction be going on and I the Mormon continue to have such wrong ideas
about him? I find that harder to say Yes to, but I do not know. If what we
others believe about Jesus is true, it seems to me that a genuine
relationship with the real Person could not evoke less than worship. That
is the stumbling block for me with Mormonism: worship. Can you worship
without knowing it? (It was only an analogy, but maybe the Christian life
is after all a single loooong surgery, at the end of which I can see, and
realize the surgeon is not a Sasquatch. In due course, everyone will
worship...)
Lance, it may ultimately be the same question as Why aren't believers'
lives changed more, if they have the Holy Spirit within them? Why don't we
all agree about Scripture if we have the Holy Spirit within us? (I can
predict some people's answer to this.)
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> Lance,
>
> I agree that "Every christian believer believes 'through' an errant
> framework". But how errant is too errant? Is there a line that can be
> drawn? In the end either we are saved or we are not. Was our framework
> "too" errant? Was our image of Jesus too far from the real Jesus? If we
> are "too" errant for salvation, but did not know it, are we saved?
> These
> are mighty questions.
>
> To be totally honest, I cannot say with complete certainty that
mormons
> are not saved. Maybe their degree of errancy in their image of God and
> Christ falls within the "saved" camp. However, from what I read in the
> Bible, I believe that they are on the "too errant" side. That is why I
> spend the time I do on TT doing what I do. If I did not care I would be
> silent. If I thought that they were "in the fold", I would say to them
> "Welcome, brothers and sisters."
>
> Perry
>
>>From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:28:13 -0400
>>
>>Interesting! (there's that word again) Every christian believer
>>believes
>>'through' an errant framework. One may believe in a geocentric universe
or
>>a flat earth and, live out a fairly normal life. May one believe
'through'
>>a Mormon Jesus (assuming this to be a totally aberrant Jesus) into
>>Jesus
>>as He is? I don't know. What think YE Perry?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bill Taylor
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: June 26, 2005 15:06
>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> We would probably have to go into some further detail as to what
>> this
>> word "salvation" means to us before my answer can suffice -- or
>> perhaps
>> even be understood (and that is up to you) -- but the short answer is
>> this: "yes, the only requirement for entrance to heaven" is salvation
--
>> with one caveat: in Jesus Christ.
>>
>> I believe that at the point in which death entered the world,
salvation
>> was necessary in order to receive eternal life. Anyone who is mortal
and
>> has died or will die on this earth must necessarily be resurrected
(which
>> is the pivotal aspect in my view of "salvation"; i.e., death being
>> swallowed up in victory) in order to live forever. In this view, then,
>> salvation is that which stands between death and an eternal life in
>> "heaven."
>>
>> Bill
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dave Hansen
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 1:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>
>>
>> DAVEH: Do you believe salvation is the only requirement for
>> entrance to heaven, Bill? (BTW....I would be most interested to hear
>> the thoughts of other TTers on this as well.)
>>
>> Bill Taylor wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> A very wise friend of mine is keen on opining that there will
be
>> many Christians who hold grossly heretical beliefs, who upon their
>> passing will nevertheless find themselves securely in heaven. I agree
>> with him: if entrance into heaven is predicated upon right and only
right
>> thinking, then I suppose heaven will be a mighty lonely place.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Dave Hansen
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>http://www.langlitz.com
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>If you wish to receive
>>things I find interesting,
>>I maintain six email lists...
>>JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
>>STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
>
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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