One other thing, Judy. Changes are not possible apart from community and our participation in same.
jt: Depends what kind of community it is. When Abraham believed God he had to come out of his community. Moses also for quite a long time.
I speak of changes that go beyond changing one's mind. I do think, however, that we agree. The truth of what I am saying is seen in the fact that God in Christ gave each of us unto the other in a thing we call THE CHURCH.
Whether this community is you and the Spirit or you and the church or you and a couple of people from the church or you and a couple damned sinner-friends (I have have several). God works all things together for good.
jt: Only for those who are called "according to His purpose" which would mean they are renewing their minds in His
Word and conforming their lives to His Way. Does the NIV leave the end of that verse also?
Who love God and are called (in accord with His purposes -- that of saving man from himself). Who love and are called -- that is it. Do you understand why I would think that more words and additional "conditions" are "adding to the word" at this point. If God had meant to say all that you just did, why didn't He do so?
But my point is this -- there is no good in this world apart from God. Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights.
I don't know Newbigin, but I know of Torrance and I know Kruger much better than you think. No one is perfect or even close. The spoken word, yours - mine - others , comes from deep within my person. It springs out of an emotional well - not from an analytical reserve buried deep within the recesses. And the contents of that well is very different from one person to a nother.
jt: The well you are speaking of is the "heart" for it is "out of the abundance that fills the heart that the mouth speaks" and before we come to Christ our hearts are "deceitful above all things" (Jer 17:9) because of our spiritual
inheritance in the first Adam. However, in Christ things are supposed to begin to change.
Actually, this is not what I had in mind. I am talking about how language - what we say - comes to us. Jer 17 has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am talking physiology
It is not simply full of "truth." In fact, there is no truth there at all!!! (This is admittedly the Gospel according John Smithson).
jt: No, I agree. Humans have to be taught and since we are all born with a sinful inheritance - the truth that
there is none righteous, no not one.
What is there, in that emotional well, is that which receives what is thrown at us for consideration. Our life -- experiences, family, fears, all that has harmed us, all that has given us a sense [an emotional sense] of belonging -- all that is there. It is from this well of running waters (a dynamic influence) that our responses are forthcoming. A person who is rescued and nurtured by the queerest of persons will see that person for what he is and not for the troubling uniqueness that surrounds him -- that enters the room ahead of himself.&nbs p;
jt: I see the unregenerate heart as more of a stagnant pool than a running well. The enemy begins to build his
strongholds in children early on and just keeps adding to the pile of offenses, resentment, and bitterness. We
learn to deceive others like that song "Oh yes I'm the great pretender"
I use "running water" to describe the dynamic of changing influences that come into our lives from the beginning and continue to the end of this life on earth. You have influences, experiences that influence your life and your theology -- the way you think about God and His will. It is inescapable. It is the thoughtless and the bigot that refuses this truth (NOT including anyone on TT). You never know what is in there, way down deep. But such influences our perceptions - the Lord through His Spirit works around this -- else we would all be robot in appearance.
My Mom was a nutcase. Very selfish --- someone who was more interested in self than in, well, me!! But I understand her (she died way back when) and I have forgiven my understanding of her. Her father offered severe beatings with a pair of horse reins, often She was the youngest of many children and the older sisters gave her no rest. So what !!!?? Such input gives me reason to be understanding.
jt: How sad. It sounds as though the first lesson your mother learned was self preservation and that she received
little or no nurturing herself and so was unable to nurture you.
Something like that. I was competition. Whatever.
And, she lived in a time when the church was full of the kind of legalism I now despise. No answers. NOt one damn answer!!
jt: Was she a member of the denomination you came out of? I didn't find any answers in my denomination either but that one was not legalistic - far from it - mine was extremely liberal - either way the arm of flesh is what prevails.
Yes, same church. So we might agree that "liberal" or "conservative" is not the issue.
If we go through life thinking of truth as only conceptual, complete with substance and boundaries (and nothing more), you know, similar to a stone, and we start throwing these "truths" into that emotional well of living waters, soon or later we will so fill that well with "truth" as to render it dry and useless.
jt: I don't believe "truth" is ever dry and useless. God's Word is light and life and He has promised it will never come back void. (However, you use the same term as Lance did - "stone" is this where it came from and is theology supposed to make the stones float or am I missing something?) Getting back to "truth" When we receive God's Word and act on it we draw nigh to God and resist the enemy causing him to flee. This kind of deliverance is what will give
us victory in our lives making us free to love others because we are born with the same kinds of bondages we see in our parents - like it or not. But unlike Lance, I don't believe we have to stay that way.
I might not be using the right words -- conceptual truths (stones - in this case) and relational truth. I wish I could get this across. I really do not think you would disagree. Look -- there is a whole set of emotions and perceptions tied to any relationship. They are dynamic - ever changing - yet at any given moment, absolutely true. My sons know me well. They know where I am,emotionally, and what buttons to push. But those "buttons' have not always be the same. But the relationship has been there --- they know their dad. Relational truth. Jesus is the Truth. That is very different to my way of thinking from saying that
He knows the truth and will share it with us. since there is such a thing as truth unique to a relationship -- I see no need to resist that understanding.
THAT IS THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN CREATED, IMO. This "irrational" quality we find ourselves arguing about, here on TT is the emotional knowing of truth -- perhaps we can call it "faith." I do see faith as an emotional conviction that goes far beyond the rational.
jt: Faith is the substance of things hoped for ie We lay hold of God's promises by faith. Now Lance's confession that we must stay the same until we die will get nothing from God. It is unbelief no matter how fancy the doctrine he holds to. Double minded men get nothing from God.
I believe Paul saw the same vision. And, so, the holy day fellow and the "vegetarian" (both grossly wrong in their thinking) had a viable faith so alive that Paul demanded we allow room for this emotional knowing called faith, knowing that, in the end, it is not Truth as a well defined concept that wins the day, but Truth as a changing dynamic defined by the Kingdom of God that is the answer.
jt: The "vegetarian" was from all accounts a baby believer and in other places we are told that it is not what goes into the belly and comes out in the draught that makes the difference. What defiles the man comes from the heart.
I don't know from all accounts. What I do know is that he was wrong and Paul said LEAVE HIM ALONE. Ditto for the hOlyDay boy. They are wrong in their doctrine -- leave them alone. They serve their Master -- NOT YOU.
Jesus is the "...truth ..." Truth, then is not a concept, per se. It is the Sovereign Influence helping and healing. JD
jt: Jesus prayed "Sanctify them through Thy Truth; Thy Word is Truth" (John 17:17); so His Word both cleanses and heals.
Yes, of course, Aren't you the one who has been faithful in pointing out that He is the Word. In that sense, we had the Word long before anything written came along.
