This is good and thanks for the questions. I must be able to get the point across without a great deal of confusion.
First -- it will help you to know that I do not believe that everyone is saved because of the work of Christ. The fact that He has reconciled all things unto HImself (Col 1:17 ff) does not mean that all are saved ------ at least not to me. I think Bill would agree. I think Baxter would agree!!
Look, as I see it, this confusion is the result of at least two things: 1) issues with the way I present this concept and 2) a little bit of laziness on our part in terms of "terms." We often confuse "inspiration" and "revelation." And, we see little difference between the definitions of sanctification, redemption, atonement, salvation and even propitiation. W lump all sorts of sinners into one big category (the lost, the unsaved, those of the flesh, the carnal babe in Christ, the saved sinner.)
Ditto for sin: we have "sin" (one size fits all), we have the unforgiven sin, we have the sin unto death, we have the practice of sin, we have the forgivable sin of blasphemy, we have those that "commit sin" but do not practice same. Add to this mix the character sins of selfishness and pride -- always there, defined as "sin" but less often expressed in some event, and the good old fashion sin of omission.
It is a little frustrating because I have seen a number of posts by Terry that I whole heartily agree with -- covering differing aspects of this subject. So we agree to a great extent.
Anyway -- some of your question, Perry, may be at the center of the problem. I will take some time and get this worked out. Even if we wind up not in agreement, it would be nice to be understood -- so back to the mines.
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Perry Locke <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:57:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ
John,
What say ye of those who never believed that Jesus is the Son of God, or that he died for their sins, or that they even need a savior, and who never repented?
While we know that Jesus atoned for thier sins, too, they may not even know that, and if they do, may not believe it, acknowledge it, or think it necessary, perhaps thinking that salvation is of no consequence to them after they die, and maybe even thinking they are saved because "they are a good person", or because "everyone will be saved".
I am afraid I see Terry's point much clearer than yours on this.
Is it possible that the "sinners" you guys are discussing are two divergent groups? Could you be talking about "all sinners who repent", and Terry about "all sinners, those who repent and those who do not (i.e., all humans)"?
Perry
>>Terry wrote:
>>"If you are simply saying that He calls us to follow while we are yet >>filthy sinners, I am with you. You don't have to clean up your act for >>God to want you in His family, but you ain't gonna be in the family if you >>stay the way He found you. I would hope you would agree."
>then John responded:
>"What gets us saved keeps us saved. If faith apart from obedience to law, >if an exchange of faith for personal righteousness, if death on the cross >while we were yet sinners applies to us today and again in the future, if >we are , in deed, saved by His effort saves as a sovereign effort -- then >he saves us (accepts us) just as we are. This business of "if you stay >the way He found you" is an impossibility!!!"
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought t o answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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What say ye of those who never believed that Jesus is the Son of God, or that he died for their sins, or that they even need a savior, and who never repented?
While we know that Jesus atoned for thier sins, too, they may not even know that, and if they do, may not believe it, acknowledge it, or think it necessary, perhaps thinking that salvation is of no consequence to them after they die, and maybe even thinking they are saved because "they are a good person", or because "everyone will be saved".
I am afraid I see Terry's point much clearer than yours on this.
Is it possible that the "sinners" you guys are discussing are two divergent groups? Could you be talking about "all sinners who repent", and Terry about "all sinners, those who repent and those who do not (i.e., all humans)"?
Perry
>>Terry wrote:
>>"If you are simply saying that He calls us to follow while we are yet >>filthy sinners, I am with you. You don't have to clean up your act for >>God to want you in His family, but you ain't gonna be in the family if you >>stay the way He found you. I would hope you would agree."
>then John responded:
>"What gets us saved keeps us saved. If faith apart from obedience to law, >if an exchange of faith for personal righteousness, if death on the cross >while we were yet sinners applies to us today and again in the future, if >we are , in deed, saved by His effort saves as a sovereign effort -- then >he saves us (accepts us) just as we are. This business of "if you stay >the way He found you" is an impossibility!!!"
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought t o answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
