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I know a good Calvinist will deny it but . .
.
Judy when you are ready to discuss this without
the smears and stereotypes, you can let me know.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
jt: JD, since God does not change and is
the same yesterday, today, and forever Why would it make a difference when the examples are
written?
bt: Because God does change
the way in which he deals with his people, Judy. For example, "God, who
at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers
by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,
whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the
worlds." Do you see any significance here to your argument above?
jt: No I don't. I am speaking of
God's standards and they have not changed any more than he has. . .
.
bt: Interesting. Perhaps you should have
said so. Please tell me, Do you deny that God has changed the ways
he has spoken to us? and the way in which he reveals himself to us? and
the way in which he relates to us?
jt: He still speaks through
prophets - today it is the testimony of Jesus who is the prophet
promised in Deut 18:15. He is now our Great High Priest and shall be the
soon coming King.
bt: I do. Firstly, God has changed the way he speaks to his people
and, secondly, in this same Son, he has changed the
way in which he relates to them -- now as Father by way
of their adoption in him. And so it does make a
difference when the examples are written.
jt: Why? The
testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy - the same Spirit that
spoke through the prophets.
bt: If there is no difference,
Judy, why then do you suppose the preacher to the Hebrews makes a point
of distinguishing between the "ways" in which God has spoken in times
past and the way in which in these last days he has "spoken to us by His
Son"? I would suggest it does make a very big difference, in that
"neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever
the Son will reveal him."
jt: Because no prophet up until
then had been identified as "God's only begotten son" - even so he
did not speak his own words or do his own thing. He came to do the
will of the Father.
God "kicked" Adam et al out of the garden for
a very good reason: "lest he put out his hand and take also of the
tree of life, and eat, and live forever." It was not to exclude Adam
from the "kingdom" that he kicked him out of the garden, but to
insure that he and his posterity might be included in it on that day
when the Son through whom he had created the worlds, would become the
Head of all things, the Second Adam, in whom all things consist,
which is precisely what took place many thousands of years later.
Really? So you know for sure that
the first Adam made it in spite of himself?
BT: Think about it: What was the
significance of God clothing Adam and Woman with the bloodied
hide of an animal? Is this something Adam did, or is it
something God did "in spite" of that which Adam had done in attempting
to clothe himself? If you want to put it in those terms, Judy, then,
yes, I think we all make it "in spite" of ourselves.
jt: To cover their shame and to
teach them that without the shedding of blood there is no remission
of sin.
bt: Hence Paul could write: "He has
delivered us from the power of darkness and
conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His
love, in whom we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of
the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all
things were created that are in heaven
and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether
thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things
were created through Him and for Him. And He
is before all things, and in Him all things
consist. He is also head of the
body, the church; and He is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might
have the preeminence. For it pleased the
Father that in Him all the fullness should
dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things
to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Bill
Can we agree that the above is
written post resurrection and that it speaks of the "resurrected Christ"
- the one described in Revelation 1:11-18?
bt: Yes, we can. And can we also agree
that the verbs pertaining to this
risen One are written, not in a future tense, as if these were
things which would take place later on, or things which could take place if certain
conditions were met, but in the present and
past tenses -- meaning that these things were already true
at the time of their writing?
jt: They are true by faith but
still conditional and remember the writer is addressing the church,
ecclesia, called out ones. I know a good Calvinist will deny it
but it is possible not only to fall from grace but also to have ones
name blotted out of
the book of life.
bt: And tell me, Judy, does that not
have any bearing on the way in which we ought to consider the things you
write below?
jt: I have a problem with the way
you run everything together as though it were a done deal - like some
kind of impersonal logical formula because by doing this
you completely ignore all the "ifs, ands, and buts" in between
which are also an important part of the written record. jt..
jt: It doesn't change
reality. After all there have been promises from Abraham on yet
look at how Israel blew it so many times and look at how many of them
perished along the way. To walk by faith is a good
thing and fear of the
Lord is good. To walk in presumption is not
...
JD, since God does not change and is the same
yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a difference when the
examples are written? We are the ones who do the
changing.
He stays the same.
It is of note to me that your examples do not include the New
Covenant family of God.
I rest my case. JD From: David
Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John wrote:
> But God does not kick us out of the family
> -- we leave.
This is true in some cases, such as the prodigal son, but God also kicks
people out who he does not want to be there. If God can kick Lucifer out,
and if he can kick the angels that sinned out, and if he can kick Adam out
of the garden, etc., well, we have a pretty clear picture that God kicks
people out despite their desire to be in his kingdom.
Luke 13:24-28
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will
seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the
door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord,
Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not
whence ye are:
(26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
and thou hast taught in our streets.
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from
me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 7:19-23
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:8-13
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out.
(9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us
and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were
ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the
Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:29-46
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have
abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he
hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall
be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the
left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed
of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of
the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed
thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did
not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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