Judy wrote: Can we agree that the above is
written post resurrection and that it speaks of the "resurrected Christ" - the
one described in Revelation 1:11-18?
Bill responded: Yes, we can. And can we also agree
that the verbs pertaining to this risen One are
written, not in a future tense, as if these were things which would take
place later on, or things which could take
place if certain conditions were met, but in the present and past tenses -- meaning that these things
were already true at the time of their writing?
To which Judy responded: They are true by faith
but still conditional and remember the writer is addressing the church,
ecclesia, called out ones.
Hi Judy,
I agree with you concerning Col
1.14, that it was written to believers, i.e., the "saints" (He has delivered
us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the
Son of His love), and so I will not argue with you about this verse; but
I disagree with you, from that point forward. The verbs pertaining to the
Son in verses 15-20 are true whether one believes them "by faith" or doesn't
believe them at all. In other words, these statements are not just
"true by faith but still conditional"; they are true regardless
and hence unconditional. Please examine them and
see if you agree (and if you do not, would you mind
explaining to me why).
1) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
over all creation.
2) ... by Him all things were created that are in
heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or
dominions or principalities or powers.
3) All things were created through Him and for
Him.
4) And He is before all things,
5) and in Him all things consist.
6) He is also head of the body, the church;
7) and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
8) that in all things He might have the
preeminence.
9) ... in Him all the fullness should
dwell,
10) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
11) ... having made peace through the blood of His
cross.
To state it again, it is not "faith" which makes these
things real and true. They are true whether believed or not.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation
I believe that a person who has once believed
and received the seal of the Holy Spirit (in other words, has believed
in the true Jesus Christ) will ultimately be saved and will receive
eternal life -- see, e.g., Eph 1.13ff; 4.30; 2Cor 1.21-22; 3.11-15; Joh 5.24;
10.27-29; Rom 8.1; 8.38-39; 1Joh 5.13.
I am not sure what you mean by "once called"; for
I also believe that "many are called," but not all who are called will believe
and respond to Christ in faith; some will deny him.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:57
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
jt: There is no intentional smear Bill. Is
what I said reality or is it not? Do you believe a person can be
once
called and later fall
away?
I know a good Calvinist will deny it but
. . .
Judy when you are ready to discuss this
without the smears and stereotypes, you can let me
know.
Bill
jt: JD, since God does not change
and is the same yesterday, today, and forever Why would it make a difference when the
examples are written?
bt: Because God does
change the way in which he deals with his people, Judy. For
example, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in
time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last
days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all
things, through whom also He made the worlds." Do you see any
significance here to your argument above?
jt: No I don't. I am
speaking of God's standards and they have not changed any more
than he has. . . .
bt: Interesting. Perhaps you
should have said so. Please tell me, Do you deny that God has
changed the ways he has spoken to us? and the way in which he
reveals himself to us? and the way in which he relates to
us?
jt: He still speaks
through prophets - today it is the testimony of Jesus who is the
prophet promised in Deut 18:15. He is now our Great High Priest
and shall be the soon coming King.
bt: I do. Firstly, God has changed the way he speaks to his
people and, secondly, in this same Son, he has changed the way in which he relates
to them -- now as Father by way of their adoption in
him. And so it does make a difference
when the examples are written.
jt: Why? The
testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy - the same Spirit
that spoke through the prophets.
bt: If there is no
difference, Judy, why then do you suppose the preacher to the
Hebrews makes a point of distinguishing between the "ways" in
which God has spoken in times past and the way in which in these
last days he has "spoken to us by His Son"? I would suggest it
does make a very big difference, in that "neither knoweth any
man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will
reveal him."
jt: Because no prophet up
until then had been identified as "God's only begotten son" -
even so he did not speak his own words or do his own thing.
He came to do the will of the Father.
God "kicked" Adam et al out of the
garden for a very good reason: "lest he put out his hand and
take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." It was
not to exclude Adam from the "kingdom" that he kicked him out of
the garden, but to insure that he and his posterity might be
included in it on that day when the Son through whom he had
created the worlds, would become the Head of all things, the
Second Adam, in whom all things consist, which is precisely
what took place many thousands of years later.
Really? So you know for sure
that the first Adam made it in spite of himself?
BT: Think about it: What was the
significance of God clothing Adam and Woman with the bloodied
hide of an animal? Is this something Adam did, or is it
something God did "in spite" of that which Adam had done in
attempting to clothe himself? If you want to put it in those
terms, Judy, then, yes, I think we all make it "in spite" of
ourselves.
jt: To cover their shame
and to teach them that without the shedding of blood there is
no remission of sin.
bt: Hence Paul could write: "He has
delivered us from the power of darkness and
conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of
His love, in whom we have redemption through
His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is
the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. For by Him all things were created
that are in heaven and that are
on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created
through Him and for Him. And He is before
all things, and in Him all things
consist. He is also head of
the body, the church; and He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He
might have the preeminence. For it
pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness
should dwell, and by Him to
reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things
on earth or things in heaven, having made peace
through the blood of His cross. Bill
Can we agree that the
above is written post resurrection and that it speaks of the
"resurrected Christ" - the one described in Revelation
1:11-18?
bt: Yes, we can. And can we also
agree that the verbs pertaining to this
risen One are written, not in a future tense, as if these
were things which would take place later on, or things which could take place if certain
conditions were met, but in the present
and past tenses -- meaning that these things were
already true at the time of their writing?
jt: They are true by faith
but still conditional and remember the writer is addressing the
church, ecclesia, called out ones. I know a good Calvinist
will deny it but it is possible not only to fall from grace but
also to have ones name blotted out of the book of life.
bt: And tell me, Judy, does that
not have any bearing on the way in which we ought to consider the
things you write below?
jt: I have a problem with
the way you run everything together as though it were a done deal
- like some kind of impersonal logical formula because
by doing this you completely ignore all the "ifs, ands,
and buts" in between which are also an important part of the
written record.
jt..
jt: It doesn't change
reality. After all there have been promises from Abraham on
yet look at how Israel blew it so many times and look at how many of them
perished along the way. To walk by faith is a good
thing and fear
of the Lord is good. To walk in presumption is not
...
JD, since God does not change and is
the same yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a difference when the
examples are written? We are the ones who do the
changing.
He stays the same.
It is of note to me that your examples do not include the
New Covenant family of God.
I rest my case. JD From:
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John wrote:
> But God does not kick us out of the family
> -- we leave.
This is true in some cases, such as the prodigal son, but God also kicks
people out who he does not want to be there. If God can kick Lucifer out,
and if he can kick the angels that sinned out, and if he can kick Adam out
of the garden, etc., well, we have a pretty clear picture that God kicks
people out despite their desire to be in his kingdom.
Luke 13:24-28
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will
seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the
door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord,
Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not
whence ye are:
(26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
and thou hast taught in our streets.
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from
me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 7:19-23
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:8-13
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out.
(9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us
and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were
ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the
Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:29-46
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have
abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he
hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall
be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the
left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed
of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of
the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed
thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did
not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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